Haplogroup R1a

[cacio]

lgmayka:

does the statement on C come from the new book? Intriguing, I should read the book. It sounds like a statement about the out of Africa waves, a C-D coastal wave and an F wave (by land?). Does he have any proof about this, or is it just speculation?

cacio

[lgmayka]

does the statement on C come from the new book? Intriguing, I should read the book. It sounds like a statement about the out of Africa waves, a C-D coastal wave and an F wave (by land?). Does he have any proof about this, or is it just speculation?

Yes, the statement on C comes from his new book.

I presume that his evidence is in the test results he has collected from all over the world. Unfortunately, no one else can examine these right now.

[cacio]

lgmayka:

hmm, if he doesn't cite any proof, then probably he doesn't have it. Then it's probably just guesswork, which may make sense, given that C and D guys are found all around the Asian coast, while the F-K guys display a different pattern.

I went to a presentation by Spencer Wells, and he didn't really cite any fundamental results, at least about this migration. He just talked about some Filipino negrito group (they are Ksomething), and Chad (he didn't say the hap, other than it shows a migration from the ME. So may be they are J or R1).

Anyway, for this thread, I see as more interesting the very recent identification of what seems the most ancient modern human presence in Europe - in a site near Moscow. A proof of the route of R1 guys into Europe?

cacio

[sitw]

Indian society has been subject to multiple waves of migration in historicand prehistoric times. The first was the ancient Palaeolithic migration by early humans. This was followed by the early Neolithic migration, probably of proto-Dravidian speakers. About 3,500 years ago, the Indo-European speakers arrived. “Indian tribal and caste populations emerge from the genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians,” said Dr Thangaraj. “At the same time, the paternal lineage of Indian castes is more closely related to the Central Asians.”

The speculations in respect to the origin of 1Ra from India don't seem to be well founded.
It is known that the greatest concentrations of 1Ra are, in particular, amidst the eastern Slavic populations of Poland, Russia, Ukraine, as well as in central Asia's Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and eastern Iran (of which Y chromosome has not significantly been influenced). The origin of Slavs is not quite identified, however the most convincing theories are those that imply South Eastern Europe and Western Asia as the main source. It is rather doubtful that Slavs' ancestors have inherited R1a from India. The spread of 1Ra in Scandinavia does not support the India version either, since the origin of Norwegians and Swedes is traced to the South Eastern Europe and Western Asia.

[Eki]

“Indian tribal and caste populations emerge from the genetic heritage of Pleistocene southern and western Asians,” said Dr Thangaraj.
.
.
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The spread of 1Ra in Scandinavia does not support the India version either, since the origin of Norwegians and Swedes is traced to the South Eastern Europe and Western Asia.

But what if R1a left Western Asia to several directions, India, South-eastern Europe and Scandinavia?

[sitw]

But what if R1a left Western Asia to several directions, India, South-eastern Europe and Scandinavia?

This thought has much better ground rather considering the original root of 1Ra located in Western Asia (or South Eastern Europe) than in India. It also plays well enough with Spencer Wells “Kurgan people” theory. Though, the time of R1a origin within last 10000 - 15000 years does not seem to be well evidenced. I wonder what genetic lineage belong to the recently discovered human relics in Russia’s Voronezh region.

http://www.kommersant.com/p-9856/r_530/Kostenki_euhominids_earliest/

[Eki]

I recently tested my autosomal DNA at DNATribes and curiously had about as high match with the Nepal Sherpas as with Finns, Icelandic and Norwegians, and also had some relatively high matches in northern India (see the attached file). First I thought the Asian matches were flukes, but now I found this curious mention on a Shetland DNA project page that says an R1a individual had an exact match in Nepal. Could it be that R1a people came from Nepal/Northern India to Scandinavia or the other way around?

http://www.davidkfaux.org/shetlandislandsY-DNA.html

"Conclusions: The ancestors of Lawrence Mathewson of Aywick and Utrabister, Mid Yell, son of Matthew Thomason and grandson of Thomas Mathewson (of Copister, South Yell, d. 1687), were likely Norse Vikings (suggested by R1a grouping) who settled in Shetland circa 800 AD. Due to patronymics, the surnames of his surviving descendants in the male line today are either Mathewson or Williamson. The DNA signature is very rare. In worldwide DNA databases, the largest number of close matches is with the Altai people of Central Asia. The only exact matches in about 100,000 samples are found in Nepal, and Western Norway, as well as Shetland including the large family with the surname Blance from Delting, whose relationship has not yet been ascertained via genealogical record sources."

I found this Wikipedia article on historical distribution of red hair interesting. It says red hair is most common in Britain, the Nordic countries, the Baltic States, Russia and northern Germany, but is also sporadically found in Northern India, Pakistan and Iran:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair#Historical_Distribution

"A fragment by Xenophanes describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red-haired, and Herodotus described the "Budini" (probably Udmurts and Permyak Finns) as being predominantly redheaded. The Berber and Kabylie populations of northern Algeria have occasional red heads. Red hair was also found in Asia, notably among the Tocharians. The 2nd millennium BC Caucasoid Tarim mummies in China were found with red and blonde hair.[1]

Boudica, the famous Celtic queen of the Iceni, was said by the Greek historian Dio Cassius to: "be tall and terrifying in appearance ... a great mass of red hair fell over her shoulders". The Roman Tacitus commented on the "red hair and large limbs of the inhabitants of Caledonia [Scotland]" (The Life of Agricola, Ch. 11), which he linked with some red haired German/Belgic Gaulish tribes.

Today, red hair is most commonly found at both the west and eastern fringes of modern Europe. It is associated with those in Great Britain (more specifically the Scots, Welsh and Cornish) and Ireland. A high proportion of redheads is found in Scotland where 13% of the population has red hair. Ireland too has many redheads, as many as 10% of the Irish population have ginger or strawberry blond hair, while it is thought that up to 35% carry a recessive "ginger gene".[2] Red hair is most common in northernmost England, in which it has a frequency of over 15 percent. Red hair has a frequency of over 10 percent in Wales. [3] However, red or reddish-tinged hair is also found in other Caucasian populations particularly in the Nordic countries, the Baltic States, Russia and Northern Germany.

In Asia, darker or mixed tinges of red-hair can be found today sporadically from Northern India, Iran and Pakistan, where it can be found most commonly amongst those of Iranian descent, such as the Pashtuns, all the way to Japan."

[jpz79]

Ie Iran

".........- so I don't see how one can use this as a sign of origin or higher diversity of R1a in Iran."

It isn't the frequency of R1 subgroups that led the authors to this conclusion. Rather, it is the apparent regional clines:


"From the disparate M198 frequencies observed
for the north and south of Iran, it is possible to envision a
movement southward towards India where the lineage
may have had an infl uence on the populations south of the
Iranian deserts and where the Dash-e Lut desert would
have played a signifi cant role in preventing the expansion
of this marker to the north of Iran. The lower frequencies
of M198 in the region of Anatolia (11.8% in Greece [27]
and 6.9% in Turkey, with a statistically signifi cant longitudinal
correlation [2] ) and the Caucasus (10% in Georgia,
6% in Armenia and 7% in Azerbaijan) [24] suggests
that population movement was southward towards India
and then westward across the Iranian plateau. In addition,
the detection of rare R1-M173* and R1a-SRY1532 lineages
in Iran at higher frequencies than observed for either
Turkey, Pakistan or India suggests the hypothesis that
geographic origin of haplogroup R may be nearer Persia."


There saying that r1a1, R1, and R1a appears to decrease in frequency as you move outwardly from the Iranian plateau. Mere coincidence? Probably not.

I think that the region between Iran to Northwest India is a likely canditate for R1/R2 differentiation and subgroup origins (not to mention Indo-european orgins) because:

A) R2 is restricted to this region (and isn't found in Europe)
B) Several clines are moving outward from out and around the plateau.
C) STR diversity of R1/R2 is highest here. (Kivilsid, 2003)


I still feel that R1a1 may have actually originated in Ukraine (because last I understood, there is highest diversity there - an the R1a1 defining 49a/Taq ht 11 substem appears to have formed there), but just represents an R1a derived Nomadic Iranian tribe - specifically, the Scythians, and doesn't represent an IE invasion/migration. We know from history, that the scythians did make a movement into Iran. More exhaustive studies have to be done, to determine this for sure.