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  • Haplogroup R1a

    [COLOR=Blue]I am just beginning my genetic journey and recently received my results back from the Genographic Project.

    The yDNA testing shows that I am in the R1a (M17) Haplogroup.

    Question 1) My father, grandfather and ggrandfather were of strong "German" ancestry. Does this marker (R1a) tend to confirm that connection?

    Question 2) Where is my money best spent to move to the next level or stage of DNA testing and what can I expect to learn from these test results?

    I appreciate any and all comments, opinions and advice that members of this group would be willing to offer me.

    Best Regards,

    Richard Taubar (Tauber)
    Sayre, Pennsylvania

  • #2
    M17

    I am also new to this, and I got the same results as you.
    R1a (M17). From what I have read, M17 means R1a1.

    For some reason, R1a1 is rare in West Europe, so I got a bit confused.
    R1b is the most common haplogroup.

    My family is Norwegian (Scandinavia) from many generations back and the map showed that R1a1 is more common in some parts of Eastern Europe and in some casts in India. Even one of the Jewish groups of people have this haplogroup (Maybee a tribe that converted a long time ago?).

    Therefore, this was very confusing to me, until I read that Scandinavia and especially West Norway and Iceland have up to 30% R1a1.

    When this haplogroup is found in Ireland and Scotland, this usually indicates that a person has Viking ancestors.

    The interesting fact about the haplogroup is the way it that it shows up in different parts of the world, that one would think was unrelated.

    There are A LOT of theories out there, but it is very interesting.

    The main theory is that this group of people were the first to use horses and the origin of the Indo-European languages (most of the west European languages, except Finland and some others). In addition, that they invaded other groups of people around the world a long time ago. The Vikings probably had ancestors from of one of these tribes. However, as I said, there are many theories and nobody really knows.
    Last edited by joinge; 11 October 2005, 08:11 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      India Connection

      I am also a Haplogroup R1A( M17) and belong to the kodava community settled in the western ghats in Southern India. www.kodavas.org

      I am amazed to read your posts and am super interested to dive deeper into the study of human migrations and study especially the R1A. I would love to hear from other members to better understand the reach of the genetic marker. You can reach me at [email protected] if you have any questions or thoughts!

      Cheers

      Somanna

      Comment


      • #4
        Based on a thesis by Rootsi the Norwegian have the following Y-chromo composition based on a 72 sample from southern and central Norway:

        R1a 23.6% (East-Europe)
        R1b 27.8% (West-Europe)
        I 40.3% (West-Europe)
        N3 6.9% (East-Europe)

        As I understand the Norwegians have much in common with central and eastern europe and part of their origin is from there. The Danes have a similar mix.

        Originally posted by joinge
        I am also new to this, and I got the same results as you.
        R1a (M17). From what I have read, M17 means R1a1.

        For some reason, R1a1 is rare in West Europe, so I got a bit confused.
        R1b is the most common haplogroup.

        My family is Norwegian (Scandinavia) from many generations back and the map showed that R1a1 is more common in some parts of Eastern Europe and in some casts in India. Even one of the Jewish groups of people have this haplogroup (Maybee a tribe that converted a long time ago?).

        Therefore, this was very confusing to me, until I read that Scandinavia and especially West Norway and Iceland have up to 30% R1a1.

        When this haplogroup is found in Ireland and Scotland, this usually indicates that a person has Viking ancestors.

        The interesting fact about the haplogroup is the way it that it shows up in different parts of the world, that one would think was unrelated.

        There are A LOT of theories out there, but it is very interesting.

        The main theory is that this group of people were the first to use horses and the origin of the Indo-European languages (most of the west European languages, except Finland and some others). In addition, that they invaded other groups of people around the world a long time ago. The Vikings probably had ancestors from of one of these tribes. However, as I said, there are many theories and nobody really knows.
        Last edited by Noaide; 7 November 2005, 02:50 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by taubar
          [COLOR=Blue]I am just beginning my genetic journey and recently received my results back from the Genographic Project.

          The yDNA testing shows that I am in the R1a (M17) Haplogroup.

          Question 1) My father, grandfather and ggrandfather were of strong "German" ancestry. Does this marker (R1a) tend to confirm that connection?

          Question 2) Where is my money best spent to move to the next level or stage of DNA testing and what can I expect to learn from these test results?

          I appreciate any and all comments, opinions and advice that members of this group would be willing to offer me.

          Best Regards,

          Richard Taubar (Tauber)
          Sayre, Pennsylvania
          R1a in Europe is mostly associated with East Europe (Slavic origins), Central Asia and South Asia (India and Pakistan). Germany seems to have some R1a.

          Comment


          • #6
            the map showed that R1a1 is more common in some parts of Eastern Europe and in some casts in India.
            It's incorrect that R1a1 is common among some castes in India. In fact, it's common among tribals of India too. Well, recent research even claim it's diversity is highest among the tribals than castes thus ruling out any gene flow from castes to tribals.

            Comment


            • #7
              http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/11/6/994

              "For maternally inherited mtDNA, each caste is most similar to Asians. However, 20%-30% of Indian mtDNA haplotypes belong to West Eurasian haplogroups, and the frequency of these haplotypes is proportional to caste rank, the highest frequency of West Eurasian haplotypes being found in the upper castes. In contrast, for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians. Moreover, the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being most similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. These findings are consistent with greater West Eurasian male admixture with castes of higher rank. Nevertheless, the mitochondrial genome and the Y chromosome each represents only a single haploid locus and is more susceptible to large stochastic variation, bottlenecks, and selective sweeps. Thus, to increase the power of our analysis, we assayed 40 independent, biparentally inherited autosomal loci (1 LINE-1 and 39 Alu elements) in all of the caste and continental populations (~600 individuals). Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians. We conclude that Indian castes are most likely to be of proto-Asian origin with West Eurasian admixture resulting in rank-related and sex-specific differences in the genetic affinities of castes to Asians and Europeans."

              The Rig Veda

              http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/

              HYMN IX. Indra.

              3 O Lord of all men, fair of cheek, rejoice thee in the gladdening lauds,
              Present at these drink-offerings.

              HYMN C. Indra.

              18 He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus, after his wont, and laid them low with arrows.
              The mighty Thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends won the land, the sunlight, and the waters.

              HYMN CI. Indra.

              1. SING, with oblation, praise to him who maketh glad, who with Rjisvan drove the dusky brood away.
              Fain for help, him the strong whose right hand wields the bolt, him girt by Maruts we invoke to be our Friend.


              HYMN CXXX. Indra.

              8 Indra in battles help his Aryan worshipper, he who hath hundred helps at hand in every fray, in frays that win the light of heaven.
              Plaguing the lawless he gave up to Manu's seed the dusky skin; Blazing, 'twere, he burns each covetous man away, he burns, the tyrannous away.

              RIG VEDA - BOOK THE EIGHTH

              HYMN LXII. Asvins.

              17 He looked upon the Asvins, as an axearmed man upon a tree:
              Let your protecting help be near.
              18 By the black band encompassed round, break it down, bold one, like a
              fort.

              BOOK IX

              HYMN LXXIII. Soma Pavamana.

              5 O'er Sire and Mother they have roared in unison bright with the verse of praise, burning up riteless men,
              Blowing away with supernatural might from earth and from the heavens the swarthy skin which Indra hates.

              Comment


              • #8
                Bamshad et al.(2001) study that you have cited is one of the most primitive studies done on the Indian caste population. Also, the region and number of samples didn't do any justice to the vast Indian population. In fact, this study fails completely when you consider North-West Indian population. Mind you, the genetics geneology was still in its infancy when that study came up. Many of the so-called European markers were later found to be Indian specific(like that mtDNA U2i) mentioned in that study. That in fact brought down the so-called Western Eurasian markers in the Indian population to a great extent.

                For all your ramblings about Indra, I can only state that Brahmins, hindu priestly caste, have thrown him out long back(He is not worshipped in any temples) and in his place installed Shiva with his dark phallus and that is from Kashmir to KanyaKumari(Tamil Nadu).

                May be you would like to go thro' this blog.
                http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/11...hromosome.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fatherR
                  It's incorrect that R1a1 is common among some castes in India. In fact, it's common among tribals of India too. Well, recent research even claim it's diversity is highest among the tribals than castes thus ruling out any gene flow from castes to tribals.
                  I have a question. What is meant by "Indian-Tribal"? In my REO, the 2 closest matches (2-step) are from India, one with the comment "Indian-Tribal". I also have the same for a 3-step match. Thank you...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I have a question. What is meant by "Indian-Tribal"?
                    There are tribals in India who are mostly forest or hilly area dwellers. They form 8% of Indian population. Almost, 70% of them are found in Central India. They are mostly Indo-European or Dravidian speaking people. However, most of the North-East Indians are classified under tribals. They are generally East-Asian.
                    Last edited by fatherR; 5 December 2005, 09:59 AM. Reason: Spelling mistake.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by fatherR
                      It's incorrect that R1a1 is common among some castes in India. In fact, it's common among tribals of India too. Well, recent research even claim it's diversity is highest among the tribals than castes thus ruling out any gene flow from castes to tribals.
                      Your point is not clear. Are you questioning Indo-European origins of caste population, Or are you stating that all Indians have the same origins, or something else?

                      There are different kinds of tribals like you said in a different message, and not all are R1a. There are numerous explanations for presence of R1a in the tribals, you need to see them to understand their difference from Australoid-origin tribals. Similarly for the caste populations.

                      No group, anywhere, is homogeneous; I don’t think anybody is claiming that. There is a significant percentage of R1a in caste population, and a lesser significant (but surprising nonetheless) R1a in tribal, with nothing in between.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Your point is not clear. Are you questioning Indo-European origins of caste population, Or are you stating that all Indians have the same origins, or something else?

                        There are different kinds of tribals like you said in a different message, and not all are R1a. There are numerous explanations for presence of R1a in the tribals, you need to see them to understand their difference from Australoid-origin tribals. Similarly for the caste populations.
                        The major Haplogroups of India like, R1a1, L*, H* have ages greater than Holocene(around 80% of the population and that's the reason you find tribals with these Haplogroups but not say, Haplogroup J2* which is a later addition). As you might be knowing civilization started around Holocene or 11000 years ago. If that won't give Indian caste population just Indian origins instead of Indo-European origins then I would like to have only African identity and nothing else.

                        As the time passes you would like to appreciate not only European contribution to Hinduism but also the Semitic. You would take pride in the fact that Indians appropriated European and Semitic stories for their homegrown religious cults and deities whose primitivity and complexity has stood the test of the time at least for 65% of the population. Then there is caste system. Hmmmm... I suppose that's okay. Isn't Hitler the biggest enemy of Europeans considering the number of people who died during WWII?

                        Anyway, Since R1a1 is predominant around North-West of India and also in Eastern Europe, you would expect multiple back and forth migrations for this people. By the way, North Indian upper castes have R1a1 around 45% but South Indian upper castes have around 28% showing historical migrations/invasions shaping up North Indian upper-caste population to a certain extent. And I suppose H* is predominant in Central India(Also, the Romas show haplogroup H in high frequency) and L* in South India.

                        May be you would also like to see a report from Genographic project:
                        http://www-03.ibm.com/industries/hea...323061105.html

                        Check out the age of R1a in that report.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I don’t think any study suggests that Indo-Europeans in India appeared 'yesterday'. Neither did they land there 10,000 years ago. The link that you provided leads to IBM whose team has worked with National Geographic on the Genographic project. The Genographic project points out the origin of R1a as the Ukraine region clearly.

                          The Genographic project also says that R1a is 10K years old. Assuming that is more or less in the range of the 11K age that you suggest, we will be forced to believe that either R1a evolved in parallel in two parts of the world, or that R1a people moved to India from its place of origin as soon as the M17 marker evolved, which would be an incredible feat at that time. ‘M17 appears on the scene, meaning that it is still in very low numbers, and despite that, it manages to scatter and is also found in huge numbers in a group that moves to India right away at that time to evolve further’. That doesn’t sound credible.

                          I didn’t see any paper which captured the age of Indian R1a, however even if it is old, where is a reason to believe that it aged in India? It could well have aged outside in a isolated group before their migration to India.

                          If there is a theory that Indians somehow got hold of European and Semitic traditions and mimicked them 6K years ago, without genetic flow prior to the appearance of the Vedas, then it is so ridiculous that it is not worthy to even discuss. Back and forth migrations are just not possible in the huge numbers required to influence genetic composition, religion and culture. We would have otherwise seen the genetic footprint of the other Indian hap groups in the neighbouring region, but there is none. (Only R1a cant be migrating all alone all the time)

                          Hence, the traffic was one way – into India. The fact that R1a is predominant in North Indian upper castes than in South India in fact corroborates the observation of the direction of the migration of R1a – from North to South to South to South…

                          The more feasible time period of the addition of R1a to India seems to be 4K-6K years ago, and brought with it Indo-European language and religion. Some of the migrating crowds got separated into tribes, others imposed themselves as the upper castes.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Some of the migrating crowds got separated into tribes, others imposed themselves as the upper castes.
                            Okay, at least you give some considerations for tribes. Very soon, you would be considerate to declared lower castes. Tribes and upper castes those two are opposite ends, I feel.

                            If there is a theory that Indians somehow got hold of European and Semitic traditions and mimicked them 6K years ago, without genetic flow prior to the appearance of the Vedas, then it is so ridiculous that it is not worthy to even discuss.
                            Nobody said that. You are just constraining yourself.

                            You should check out this link:
                            http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/11...hromosome.html

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Cobra

                              Originally posted by cobra
                              I have a question. What is meant by "Indian-Tribal"? In my REO, the 2 closest matches (2-step) are from India, one with the comment "Indian-Tribal". I also have the same for a 3-step match. Thank you...
                              May I ask, which country do you trace your origin to? Might be interesting to draw inferences, even if they are guesses

                              Comment

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