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Why no maps of the US?

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  • Why no maps of the US?

    I have not yet ordered the new test from the genographic project, but I have noticed that the new test comes with heat maps like the one below.

    Why has no one made any heatmaps for the US and Canada with data from for instance 2012, and not just estimations of what it looked like in pre-historic times? I have been to the US several times, and there is clearly a different distribution of people in for instance California than New York. I suspect that different Y- and mtDNA-haplogroups in the US will be very uneven. Immigrants from different parts of the world settled in different parts of the US, and many have stayed in the area where the first arrived.


  • #2
    I expect a heat map for the US would look no different than a population concentration map and would be more-or-less identical for all haplogroups.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by tomcat View Post
      I expect a heat map for the US would look no different than a population concentration map and would be more-or-less identical for all haplogroups.
      That sounds about right to me. The U.S. is known as a melting pot nation and in the last few decades there has been a lot of intermarriage between different ethnic groups (Irish, German, Italian, etc.), which would tend to make the population distribution of ethnic groups homogeneous. That may have been different in the pre-World War II era when recent immigrants tended to marry within their ethnic group.

      The only exception would probably be in areas with large Hispanic populations, the area from Texas to California. Given the European and Native American admixture from the Spanish colonization, you'd probably see an increase in the Native American mtDNA haplogroups there. That's due to the pattern of male Spanish colonists having children with Native American women.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by tomcat View Post
        I expect a heat map for the US would look no different than a population concentration map and would be more-or-less identical for all haplogroups.
        Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
        That sounds about right to me. The U.S. is known as a melting pot nation and in the last few decades there has been a lot of intermarriage between different ethnic groups (Irish, German, Italian, etc.), which would tend to make the population distribution of ethnic groups homogeneous. That may have been different in the pre-World War II era when recent immigrants tended to marry within their ethnic group.
        That could be true. However, I think it would take many generations for something like this to even out. If you look at European countries, you will see that there are still large regional differences within the countries, even if people have been moving around extensively for the last 200-300 years.
        Last edited by Native; 13 January 2013, 03:21 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Native View Post
          That could be true. However, I think it would take many generations for something like this to even out. If you look at European countries, you will see that there are still large regional differences within the countries, even if people have been moving around extensively for the last 200-300 years.
          I suppose one would see more Jewish haplogroups in the Northeast and more African haplogroups in the South and, as MMaddi pointed-out, more American Indian haplogroups in the Southwest. But as most here live in cities most haplogroups would be blobs of various sizes centered on urban areas.

          Come to think of it, you might find a map based on census data that would give a sense of ethnic distribution.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Native View Post
            That could be true. However, I think it would take many generations for something like this to even out. If you look at European countries, you will see that there are still large regional differences within the countries, even if people have been moving around extensively for the last 200-300 years.
            That's just it, North America is not Europe. Prior to the invention of the bicycle, it was common for the English to travel no farther than 1 mile from their places of his birth.

            North America has a very different history. No genetically identifiable group has been in one North American location long enough to put its stamp on that location. This is true of Native Americans. This is true of Americans of other heritages. Therefore, a genetic heat map of the US would have no scientific value.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by MFWare View Post
              That's just it, North America is not Europe. Prior to the invention of the bicycle, it was common for the English to travel no farther than 1 mile from their places of his birth.

              North America has a very different history. No genetically identifiable group has been in one North American location long enough to put its stamp on that location. This is true of Native Americans. This is true of Americans of other heritages. Therefore, a genetic heat map of the US would have no scientific value.
              I believe you are wrong. People here have already made some examples, and pointed out that Hispanic and Jewish haplogroups would not be evenly spread out throughout the US. I have an additional example: One third of the Norwegian population moved to the US in the 1800s, and only a minority of them ever moved back home. The highest concentration of Norwegian immigrants settled in Minnesota and the Dakotas in the 1870s. Even if most their descendants have moved elsewhere since then, the Norwegian haplogroups would most likely be found in larger concentrations in Minnesota and the Dakotas than elsewhere in the US.

              I also disagree when it comes to scientific value: If you made haplogroup heat maps today, then they can be compared to haplogroup heat maps in the future. There is still strong natural/sexual selection, so I would expect some haplogroups to increase and some to decrease over time if there is any difference between haplogroups in evolutionary fitness. Remember that for evolution to take place, you simply need a certain degree of non-randomness when it comes to who have kids, and who doesn't. This would be interesting science indeed.

              Originally posted by tomcat View Post
              But as most here live in cities most haplogroups would be blobs of various sizes centered on urban areas.
              The point about cities being different than rural areas is a valid one, and I am not sure how this has been solved in the haplogroup heat maps of Europe. Traditionally, people in Europe before the industrial revolution either moved a short distance from the countryside to the closest city as unskilled workers, or from major city to major city over longer distances if they had technichal skills that were in high demand. I would expect the city population in the US to be more mobile than for instance farmers. One way to solve this problem could be to skip the cities altogether, or simply use US states as the smallest geographical unit.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Native View Post
                I believe you are wrong. ...
                You cannot make a valid claim that North American residents from Europe, Africa, or Asia who have lived in an area for a generation or two constitute a genetically significant population. What is more, the residents of these areas in North America are not isolated from their neighbors with origins in very different population groups. The Asians of the U. S. West Coast live next door to people of English, Spanish, and Native American descent. Many African Americans in the South lived on the same land--often shared residence--with those who enslaved them. Native Americans by the early 19th Century had already begun to be subsumed by interbreeding with members of the growing European invasion. The invaders of North America came from diverse locations all over the European Continent. However, smaller numbers from Africa and Asia joined the Europeans on the North American Continent. Many came adults. Many who came to these shores lived-out lives within a few miles of their ports of entry. However, others fanned-out across this great Continent.

                How would you do a heat map of New York, Boston, Miami, New Orleans, Galveston, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Memphis, San Antonio, San Francisco, or Seattle? What would it mean? If you want a sense of the diversity of the U. S., then plot ethic density from Census data. However, your map will be meaningless as far as the genetic profile of the population is concerned.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MFWare View Post
                  You cannot make a valid claim that North American residents from Europe, Africa, or Asia who have lived in an area for a generation or two constitute a genetically significant population. What is more, the residents of these areas in North America are not isolated from their neighbors with origins in very different population groups. The Asians of the U. S. West Coast live next door to people of English, Spanish, and Native American descent. Many African Americans in the South lived on the same land--often shared residence--with those who enslaved them. Native Americans by the early 19th Century had already begun to be subsumed by interbreeding with members of the growing European invasion. The invaders of North America came from diverse locations all over the European Continent. However, smaller numbers from Africa and Asia joined the Europeans on the North American Continent. Many came adults. Many who came to these shores lived-out lives within a few miles of their ports of entry. However, others fanned-out across this great Continent.

                  How would you do a heat map of New York, Boston, Miami, New Orleans, Galveston, St. Louis, Cincinnati, Memphis, San Antonio, San Francisco, or Seattle? What would it mean? If you want a sense of the diversity of the U. S., then plot ethic density from Census data. However, your map will be meaningless as far as the genetic profile of the population is concerned.
                  I agree with what MFWare has said, the heat map would not show the results you have suggested. As I see it the only thing that would come close to indicating ethnic concentrations are maps developed from census records: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra..._United_States
                  These results would only indicate where people migrated from and not their genetic ancestry.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Native View Post
                    ...
                    The point about cities being different than rural areas is a valid one, and I am not sure how this has been solved in the haplogroup heat maps of Europe. ... I would expect the city population in the US to be more mobile than for instance farmers. One way to solve this problem could be to skip the cities altogether, or simply use US states as the smallest geographical unit.
                    I expect, given the longstanding trend of internal migration to towns and cities without a countervailing trend of moving back to the land, that the ethnic, or haplogroup, distribution in rural areas would resemble, to a definite if somewhat reduced degree, the ethnic or haplogroup profile of European settlers.

                    It would be interesting, to have an ethnic or haplogroup profile for a given US county or state to compare to demographics gleaned from historic censuses.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tomcat View Post
                      I expect, given the longstanding trend of internal migration to towns and cities without a countervailing trend of moving back to the land, that the ethnic, or haplogroup, distribution in rural areas would resemble, to a definite if somewhat reduced degree, the ethnic or haplogroup profile of European settlers.

                      It would be interesting, to have an ethnic or haplogroup profile for a given US county or state to compare to demographics gleaned from historic censuses.
                      My point exactly Good to hear that someone agrees.

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                      • #12
                        From the 2000 US Census:

                        https://upworthy-production.s3.amazo...try_Nugget.jpg

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