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  • #46
    Brahmin/Pole Battle

    My R1a1 heritage is Polish. I married a mtdna F northern Indian Brahmin. Much to my inlaws chagrin, genetically I may be more Brahmin than their daughter whose Haplogroup F is more southeast asian.

    Upon hearing the news, my father-in-law is getting tested.

    Bests, Glenn

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by jpz79
      Arabs are thus, as Cavalli-Sforza's Autosomal study of 120 alleles on 42 world populations would suggest, a mix of proto-Caucasoids and fully evolved Caucasoids (whom strictly speaking don't exist any more, but who were the original J bearing peoples at the time - it represents an indigenous evolution of Iranians between 70-10kybp, well contested by the archeological record). Yes, recent African admixture in Arabs is lower as most DNA studies suggest, but autosomal data reveal much greater similarites to the Negro.


      http://www.geocities.com/zadeh1979/pcmap.jpg
      http://www.geocities.com/zadeh1979/tree.JPG
      First, your little graphs are meaningless by themselves. Please cite the scholarly paper in which they occur, so we can evaluate its source, context, and time frame.

      Second, please give a proper citation of the Cavalli-Sforza paper you mention. Again, we need to evaluate its context and time frame.

      Third, just what do you mean by "fully evolved Caucasoids"? Do you realize that that phrase sounds sickeningly racist, as if some segment of the human population were more "fully evolved" and therefore superior to the rest--which is of course racist nonsense? I hope and assume that you meant something more benign by that phrase.

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      • #48
        I agree, and I haven't seen anything in what jpz79 has posted that would lead me to conclude that J2 is the PIE y-haplogroup.

        Comment


        • #49
          "Fully evolved".

          By "fully evolved Caucasians" I mean populations at the start of the historical period that cluster farthest way from African and Asian groups. When African's left their homeland eons ago, they slowly began to diverge away from the population they left behind. Naturally, the farther they ascended North into the middle east, the more mutations they accumulated which account for a new genetic identity. However, migratory distances may only correlate loosely with biological distances. To account for the greater change we see between Arabs and Non-Arabs one has to look to the theory of punctuated equilibrium (although I'm aware this strictly involves speciation). A very small, isolated population may be subject to periods of rapid evolutionary change, in effect accumulating many new genes within a relatively short period of time.
          But even the theory of punctuated equilibrium is not necassary to account for the genetic identity of Non-Arab groups. The answer may be as simple as time and isolation. Indeed, Iranians show strikingly high levels of homogeneity (as indicitated by SAMOVA results), marking a clear distinction from both the surrounding Indians and Arabs. This clearly suggests a common origin for Iranians. The archeological record is in-line with the idea that modern-Caucasoids evolved in Iran between 70 and 10ykbp. And when one considers that genes associated with carriers of Haplogroup J (not necessarily haplogroup J itself) comprise at least 80% of European AND Arabian gene pools, and the independent genetic distance of Iranians from African's and Asian's, it is fair to say that this is the case.
          Some have argued that haplogroup J represents the spread of a group of people known as the Indo-Europeans. This notion is not arbitrary as some would like to believe, simply because it is factual that J, or at least one of it's descendents, has it's influence in a great number of IE nations.
          And for the final time, Semetic languages probably formed with later expansions. J-m267 appears to be a prime candidate for influence. Please, if you have any argument against this, present it like a reasonable person would.

          Comment


          • #50
            Well, if 80% of Europeans carry genes associated with y-haplogroup J, and most European males do not belong to y-haplgroup J (a small minority haplogroup in most of Europe), then how are we to assess the claim that J is the PIE haplogroup?

            One would have to conclude then that any PIE "invasion" of Europe was mostly conducted by women - the sisters, daughters, and granddaughters of Js - and that men belonging to that y-haplogroup had little to do with it.

            That is the only possible conclusion, since there is not much J in Europe, especially beyond the Mediterranean littoral.

            My own opinion is that the idea that 80% of Europeans carry genes associated with y-haplogroup J is erroneous and probably stems from confusion with y-haplogroup I, which also originated in the Near East, is fairly closely related to J, and entered Europe much earlier. It is also possible that the cumulative effects of all the Near Eastern-originating and fairly closely related y-haps found today in Europe - I, J, E3b, G - account for that figure (which I still believe is too high).

            It's either that or an "Attack of the Amazons" scenario.
            Last edited by Stevo; 7 September 2006, 08:13 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Ok............

              "Well, if 80% of Europeans carry genes associated with y-haplogroup J, and most European males do not belong to y-haplgroup J (a small minority haplogroup in most of Europe), then how are we to assess the claim that J is the PIE haplogroup?"


              Because I happened to be an immediate descendant of J does not, in my mind, allow one to conclude I is IE and J is not IE. Considering that J turned into I en route to Europe from Iran in a relatively insignificant period of time (even if we assume 2000 years), this conclusion would, sincerely, be absurd. Mind you that it may be arbitrary when a new haplogroup/haplotype is assigned, and it is certain that this fact is abused by racialists and ethnocentrics of all sorts.
              The fact remains that J and/or a large portion of the specific gene pool of the migrants carrying it left a genetic mark on Europe, India, and coastal portions of the middle east. This is clearly revealed with the assistance of autosomal data and archeological evidence, if it isn't obvious via the study of DNA markers. It is important not to confuse an entire spectrum of genes with a single marker that comprises only a small part of that spectrum. DNA markers are useful, but are commonly prone to flawed or arbitrary inferences.
              Last edited by jpz79; 7 September 2006, 12:06 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                jpz79

                "One would have to conclude then that any PIE "invasion" of Europe was mostly conducted by women - the sisters, daughters, and granddaughters of Js - and that men belonging to that y-haplogroup had little to do with it."
                Attack of the AMAZONS!

                Just consider that a single mutation distingushing Y-Haplogroup J from I may have lead you to surmise this!
                Last edited by jpz79; 7 September 2006, 12:36 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by jpz79
                  "One would have to conclude then that any PIE "invasion" of Europe was mostly conducted by women - the sisters, daughters, and granddaughters of Js - and that men belonging to that y-haplogroup had little to do with it."
                  Attack of the AMAZONS!

                  Just consider that a single mutation distingushing Y-Haplogroup J from I may have lead you to surmise this!
                  Incorrect, oh grasper at straws!

                  I told you what led me to conclude what I did. Here it is again.

                  There's not that much J in Europe, especially beyond the Mediterranean littoral. Far and away most European men belong to haplogroups other than J.

                  Yet you claim 80% of European genes are associated with carriers of y-haplogroup J. Well, since not that many Euro men are J, the only path left for the passage of those genes into the European genome is the female path.

                  Therefore, since J men could not have contributed that much to the European genome, it must have been their daughters, granddaughters, etc., who did so.

                  Voila! Attack of the PIE Amazons!

                  If Js (or J2s, etc.) were the original PIEs, then they introduced their genes and language into Europe primarily by sending their daughters north to marry Rs and Is.

                  That is carrying the logic of your argument to its very obvious conclusion.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Good Ol' Childhood Semantics.

                    "Yet you claim 80% of European genes are associated with carriers of y-haplogroup J. Well, since not that many Euro men are J, the only path left for the passage of those genes into the European genome is the female path."



                    This is what I said:

                    And when one considers that genes associated with carriers of Haplogroup J (not necessarily haplogroup J itself) comprise at least 80% of European AND Arabian gene pools.............


                    By saying genes associated with carriers of Haplogroup J, I was refering to the autosomal genes of the bearers of Major Haplogroup J (ie. Iranians specifically). Autosomal genes are not sex specific and are thus, carried by both males and females.


                    The bearers of major haplogroup J had (and Iranians for the most part still have) many other genes that were specific to them which do not include Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA. A population need not have to bear Haplogroup J, specifically, to carry these autosomally specific genes, which by the way, take a much longer period of time to change (and thus, are still largely remnant in modern Europe).
                    Last edited by jpz79; 7 September 2006, 09:14 PM.

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                    • #55
                      Here is a link to some interesting remarks by a recognized expert on Y-haplogroup J.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rojamg
                        My R1a1 heritage is Polish. I married a mtdna F northern Indian Brahmin. Much to my inlaws chagrin, genetically I may be more Brahmin than their daughter whose Haplogroup F is more southeast asian.

                        Upon hearing the news, my father-in-law is getting tested.

                        Bests, Glenn
                        Hey Glenn!
                        Hello from an Indian Brahmin. I match 1 Polish person exactly, and 34 Poles with a 1-step mutation, and 67 Poles with a 2 step mutation under the Recent Ancestral Origins tab.
                        Who knows, maybe you are one of them?
                        Glad to see your genes coming back to the Brahmin fold (joking)

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