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Looking for an R1a expert!

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  • Looking for an R1a expert!

    Evening all.
    I have just recieved my results from the Genographic Program, from which i have learnt i am a R1a M17, from what i gather i am a Kurgan descendant from southern Russia.
    This was a big suprise even though i knew virtually nothing about my heritage.
    I now know that my lineage has travelled over the centuries from southern Russia though central asia, down through India and the Indian Ocean and into western europe, presently the UK.
    I would be grateful if anyone can lead me to some additional information or links as to what exactly my R1a tells me about my ancestry-and who were my Kurgan people in detail.
    Also does anyone know how i could possibly find out more specific details about the actual time periods or number of generations that were in the different lands we pasted through before we ended up back in europe.

  • #2
    Have you seen this website?


    • #3
      Trying to count generations

      Thanks for the link- i found it useful.
      If there are any others that might be known let me know.
      I am a real beginners at all things scientific so pardon me for asking if anyone has any suggestions for tracking down the number of generations in specific areas which i mentioned?
      Are there any additional tests maybe? Anybody got any ideas?


      • #4
        I think you might be reading too much into this new and developing science and its predictions. I am definitely no expert, but have been reading on the subject for several months, including a daily reading of this forum.

        Being an R1a means to me that I probably trace back to the Kurgan culture, and little more. Because the main migration route went so and so, does not indicate that all the descendants went that way - some may well have stayed in Europe the whole time, say, in my case, until my ancestors came here, as I read it.

        I am currently awaiting an analysis of SNPs from Ethnoancestry (, that will give me a further breakdown of R1a, into R1a1a, R1a1b, etc., though I have no idea what further location information that will give me.

        From what I have seen here, there does not seem to be much interest in haplogroup R1a - perhaps there are just too few of us?


        • #5
          Actually, I think there is a lot of interest in R1a, or at least R1a1, because it is the predominant haplogroup of the Ashkenazi Levites and may link them to the ancient Khazar culture. That means you have a group of people who are very interested in pursuing location research further. I think that Ethnoancestry will be doing a lot of work in that area, so stay tuned.


          • #6
            I read on an article which wrote:
            "R1a is characterized by the mutations SRY10831.2- (negative as opposed to positive) and M17+. M17 is what most academic studies have tested for to determine R1a - it actually categorizes R1a1, which seems to encompass all R1a (I have yet to see a single "R1a" that was SRY10831.2- and also M17-. Anyone SRY10831.2- seems to be universally M17+, in other words all R1a are also R1a1). For this reason you will many times see R1a and R1a1 used interchangeably within the literature."

            Can anyone confirm this, as sometimes i get the impression that others differ with this point.


            • #7
              My R1a was only estimated from 42 marker STRs, ala Whit Athey, but returned a 71 (%?), so I'm assuming it is valid, that is, until I get results from Ethnoancestry.


              • #8
                I have been determined to be a M17 individual (R1a haplogroup). I am a Hindu Brahmin from South India living in the US. I have been struggling to make sense of this result. This result has put me in the league of Kurgan descendants and maybe Ashkenazi Jews. Could anyone make sense how Brahmins of India fit into the M17-R1a picture?


                • #9
                  Im strill trying to understand the Ashkenazi Levite connection (or possible one that is,); I had thought that they were a distinct genetic group?
                  I wonder then if it would be recommended for R1a's specifically to test for Jewish ancestry?
                  Anyone recommend the Family Tree DNA tests?


                  • #10
                    The most reasonable explanation for this is that the R1a1 subclade branched off from the R1 group somewhere in West Central Asia. Some of this clade migrated south and ultimately was part of the Aryan influx into India. It is well established that there is a correlation between caste status and these "European" (really Kurgan or Central Asian) haplogroups.

                    The Ashkenazi Levites who carry R1a1 are most reasonably explained as having descended from the Khazar Turks, who lived in the northern Caucasus and Black Sea region and converted to Judaism in the 9th Century. Exactly how their descendants obtained hereditary Levite status is unclear and controversial, but it happened. Unlike the situation with the Cohanim, there is no modal haplotype or haplogroup that encompasses Levites as a whole.

                    My (Ashkenazi) uncle, who is either a P* or an R* (SNP testing still pending), has many matches in India. I myself as a J2 have some there too. These haplogroups date to a time long, long before there were any Jews, Hindus, Levites, or Brahmins.


                    • #11

                      There is no "differing" of opinion. Anyone SRY10831.2- is universally M17+. I have never seen a case where they weren't, nor has any expert in the DNA Genealogy field (and I've talked to more than a few). If one pops up, I'd be happy to know about it. So far this doesn't seem to be the case. Unfortunately, most R1a1 types have no sub-category. There are very, very few R1a1a, R1a1b, R1a1c types. And from what I have read, all of them seen only in Central Asia.

                      There is a debate over whether the Kurgan culture is where the M17 mutation originated. There is some research that indicates it may have originated further east, in Central Asia, or possibly Pakistan.

                      Any R1a individual with British ancestry prior to the 17th century or so, is almost certainly of Viking ancestry. Might there be a "Sarmatian" in there? Sure. Not likely though. Your best bet, especially if you have a Scottish surname, is that your ancestry on the male line is of Viking (primarily Norwegian Viking) origin.


                      • #12
                        Kurgan Culture

                        There was a long article on the Web titled "Kurgan Culture", and I can no longer find it. Does anyone have a downloaded copy I could get? Anyone know what happened to the website?


                        • #13
                          Scandinavians often have R1a1 (M17)

                          R1a1 (M17) is rare in West Europe, but for some reason a lot of people in Scandinavia have this haplogroup. It is more commonly found some parts of Eastern Europe.

                          I know that some Jewish groups have this haplogroup, but ironically, in west Europe the R1a1 haplogroup is called the Aryan marker. It indicates Viking ancestry in the British Isles. When found in Jewish persons, it indicates that they have ancestors in Eastern Europe. People from the highest cast in India are also often R1a1.

                          30% of people in West Norway and many people from Iceland are R1a1. This haplogroup can also be found in some parts of Ireland and Scotland.

                          I am a Norwegian with haplogroup R1a1, and my family is Norwegian on both sides for many generations back.

                          One theory is that the Vikings were R1a1, and their ancestors came from some other part of the world than the rest of West Europe.
                          Last edited by Guest; 9 October 2005, 11:09 PM.


                          • #14
                            My brother just got his Genographic results and he is an R1a. We are from Dubai, the UAE but of Iranian origin.

                            I was wondering if this R1a group is what is known as the "Aryan" race which King Dariush of Persia referred to in Naqshe-Rustam. Since it is said the Aryan race of Iran/India are from the Kurgan.


                            • #15

                              Is this the site you mean?


                              Carmen Sandiego,

                              Thank you for sharing the results. Your case illustrates the goal of the Genographic Project nicely. The more data, especially from less sampled populations, the more science progresses. You can choose to submit your biographical and ethnic information to Genographic or FTDNA, and this would immensely help scientists in unpuzzling the origins of a key human subbranch.

                              As to your question: There is every reason to think King Darius I and the ancient aristocracy of Persia would share you and your brother's characteristic Aryan signature which has forcefully made its presence felt throughout Eurasia and dramatically influenced the direction of history (study the above links), from Mongolia and India to Persia and Europe.

                              Certain modernday Scandinavians, Celts, Germans, and Slavs all possess this same paternal Aryan heritage that links them to their Eastern Aryan brethren in the Near East and Asia.

                              As an individual of specifically Iranian (Iran="land of the Aryans") ancestry with R1a, your results lend more support to this theory.