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Can Geno 2 replace FF ?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by gtc View Post
    PF was not developed by FTDNA staff; it was outsourced. Frankly, I don't think FTDNA really knew what it was getting nor how to interpret the results.
    ....
    Hi gtc and all,

    I don't think FTDNA should drop PF, just improve it if and when they can. As of now it says I'm about 95.5 European (British) and 4.5% Mideast. Dr. McDonald, via the Roberta Estes blog, has explained away, if not explained, the Mideast component. That leave me European. The real problem is with the map where the Mideast part is, for me, about 20 times the size of the British part.

    23andMe says I'm 100% European. Whoopee. I read that the new AncestryDNA test gives many a Scandinavian component. Many will take that, perhaps incorrectly, as Viking ancestry. The new Geno 2.0 will probably have some quirk of its own.

    Check back in a few years and see which company has improved.

    Bill Hurst

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Neves View Post
      Not knowing how FTDNA will transfer our Geno2 info into our existing FTDNA accounts... I was wondering if our Geno2 autosomal results will be able to be used as a replacement for FF.
      My worry, with 23&Me and Geno2.0, is that their tests would replace FTDNA's more thorough assays of Y and Mt. (I don't know what AncestryDNA does with Y and Mt).

      Other than that, I agree with most respondents that Geno2.0 cannot replace FF because Geno2.0 doesn't offer matching or the same coverage as FF even if Geno2.0 outperforms FF at ancestry attribution.

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      • #18
        It's been a while 23andme exists and their test didn't replace any test of FTDNA. (Although it enabled the discovery of several Y-SNPs which can now be tested at FTDNA)

        Geno 2.0 is going to replace the deep-clade, it is true, but it is because, now, with the explosion of the number of available Y-SNPs, it is not possible for FTDNA to continue to propose this test at an affordable price. Geno 2.0 will automatically test 11000 SNPs which should define completely most haplogroups and subgroups. The few Y-SNP which aren't on Geno 2.0 can always be tested individually at FTDNA.
        The Y-STR tests will still continue to exist, since Geno 2.0 doesn't have anything to do with them.

        I see no reason for the FMS to be discontinued as it continues to be the ultimate MtDNA test even though Geno 2.0 will be an interesting alternative for those who don't wish to invest too much and only wish to know their mtdna haplogroup.
        And if the lesser Mtdna and MtDNAplus tests I stopped I don't think it will be a great loss...

        As for the Autosomal SNPs as said before they are completely oriented to ancestry and will certainly become the best ancestry test available, and not very useful to find matches. So it won't compete with 23andme or FF at all...

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        • #19
          From what I am told, the FF and Geno 2.0 overlap with approximately 80-90,000 autosomal SNP's. That leaves about 40-50,000 SNP's unique to Geno 2.0.

          I hope FTDNA allows participants in FF and Geno 2.0 to combine the results of these two autosomal tests in the advanced matching tab.

          One day all of these tests will become obsolete when a complete genome test becomes available for around $1000.

          Let's hope FTDNA gets there first.

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          • #20
            Where did you see this information ? I try to stay current on everything said on Geno 2.0 and haven't seen this but of information yet.

            Anyway, I think we can safely assume that even if FTDNA doesn't allow it, third-party applications like gedmatch will certainly enable us to merge our FF with our Geno 2.0 results...

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Itai View Post
              Geno 2.0 is going to replace the deep-clade, it is true, but it is because, now, with the explosion of the number of available Y-SNPs, it is not possible for FTDNA to continue to propose this test at an affordable price. Geno 2.0 will automatically test 11000 SNPs which should define completely most haplogroups and subgroups. The few Y-SNP which aren't on Geno 2.0 can always be tested individually at FTDNA.
              The Y-STR tests will still continue to exist, since Geno 2.0 doesn't have anything to do with them.
              I anticipate that ySNPs tested by Geno 2.0 will enhance ordering ySNPs from the Advanced Orders menu by those who don't order Geno 2.0. I think that FTDNA will add any new phylogenetically relevant SNPs found in Geno 2.0 to the Advanced Orders menu. That's exactly what they did with the "Z" and "DF" SNPs discovered from 1,000 Genomes Project results. It may even be the case that FTDNA has announced they will do that with new ySNPs from Geno 2.0 results and I'm not recalling it or missed it.

              So, any significant results from Geno 2.0 "early adopters" should be made available to less adventurous FTDNA customers through the Advanced Orders menu. The ySNPs already on the Advanced Orders menu will still be available for ordering at $29 each. For many people at FTDNA, that will be the way to work their way down their haplogroup tree to their terminal SNP, unless they are "early adopters." On the other hand, as you wrote, the deep clade test is ready for burial.

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              • #22
                There are a small number of SNPs which, based on their location in the Y-Chromosome, are basically impossible to test via the traditional, Sanger-based testing, and almost certainly will not be offered by FT-DNA (at least not in the short-term).

                In a similar vein, there are also SNPs, for similar reasons, which are basically impossible to test via chip-based methods, and will not be available on the Nat Geno 2.0 chip (or likely any future chip).

                However, the vast majority of Y-SNPs do have the potential to be tested via both means.

                It will be interesting to gauge the accuracy of the testing by both methods. Chip-based testing will certainly have a higher no-call rate than Sanger- based (in addition, FT-DNA routinely reruns tests with no-calls which cannot be done with chip-based testing). The other side of the story is the fact any testing is subject to a variety of errors (whether it be sample contamination, human error, etc.) and it will be interesting to see if the automated chip-based testing may be slightly more or less accurate than the Sanger-based testing (which I believe has more human involvement).

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                • #23
                  Hi Itai,

                  I know there has been a dearth of Geno 2.0 info since the initial announcement, so I called FTDNA customer service and
                  asked about the ETA of my complimentary Geno 2.0 results and the FF overlap.
                  This is the email I received yesterday:

                  " You should receive notification in early Nov. with a new GPID to be able to access your Geno 2.0 results, probably in the week of Nov. 12-16.

                  I spoke with Elliott Greenspan, our Family Finder specialist who has worked closely with the Genographic project and he said that about 80,000-90,000 autosomal SNPs overlap Family Finder but they are purely for anthropological use, not genealogical. In other words, they would intersect the Population Finder section rather than the matching section of FF.
                  I hope that helps.

                  Best regards,
                  Janine "

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bill Hurst View Post
                    23andMe says I'm 100% European. Whoopee. I read that the new AncestryDNA test gives many a Scandinavian component. Many will take that, perhaps incorrectly, as Viking ancestry.
                    23andMe also says that I'm 100% European.

                    I took the deCODEme test back when it was cheap (now $1,1100!) and it listed me thus:

                    1. Icelandic
                    2. Orcardian
                    3. French

                    An Icelandic company ranking me as Icelandic first sort of smacks of sample bias. (Nonetheless, a ranking of 3 for French intrigued me as my deep ancestry is reportedly Norman.)

                    The new Geno 2.0 will probably have some quirk of its own.

                    Check back in a few years and see which company has improved.
                    I agree. I think these things will get better rather than worse but, again, they need better/wider reference data sets.

                    I think the key to generating better data sets is for the governments of European countries to follow the lead of the PoBI project.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                      I think that FTDNA will add any new phylogenetically relevant SNPs found in Geno 2.0 to the Advanced Orders menu. That's exactly what they did with the "Z" and "DF" SNPs discovered from 1,000 Genomes Project results. It may even be the case that FTDNA has announced they will do that with new ySNPs from Geno 2.0 results and I'm not recalling it or missed it.
                      On Rootsweb, Thomas Krahn has said that he will endeavor to include as many newly published Y SNPs from Geno 2 as he can in FTDNA's test menu.

                      I don't have that Rootsweb link to hand, but it's been quoted on various forums.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ajmr1a1 View Post
                        Hi Itai,

                        I know there has been a dearth of Geno 2.0 info since the initial announcement, so I called FTDNA customer service and
                        asked about the ETA of my complimentary Geno 2.0 results and the FF overlap.
                        This is the email I received yesterday:

                        " You should receive notification in early Nov. with a new GPID to be able to access your Geno 2.0 results, probably in the week of Nov. 12-16.

                        I spoke with Elliott Greenspan, our Family Finder specialist who has worked closely with the Genographic project and he said that about 80,000-90,000 autosomal SNPs overlap Family Finder but they are purely for anthropological use, not genealogical. In other words, they would intersect the Population Finder section rather than the matching section of FF.
                        I hope that helps.

                        Best regards,
                        Janine "
                        Indeed there hasn't been much information lately apart from what we learned from Thomas Krahn on the mailing lists.

                        Thanks for sharing that with us, ajmr1a1 !

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tomcat View Post
                          My worry, with 23&Me and Geno2.0, is that their tests would replace FTDNA's more thorough assays of Y and Mt. (I don't know what AncestryDNA does with Y and Mt).
                          I might have qualified the above as "My worry, with 23&Me and Geno2.0, is that their tests would replace FTDNA's more thorough assays of Y and Mt in the popular/retail/consumer estimation."

                          Obviously, one cannot replace apples with oranges (Y STR's vs Y SNP's) but one could substitute a "flavor" for actual results (mtDNA sampling vs FMS) and, as we are a long way from a complete phylogenetic picture based on mtDNA FMS, and even further from a comprehensive catalog of Y SNP's and other Y markers, those who shop in haste and on price may feel snookered when more complete data obsolete their results.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tomcat View Post
                            Obviously, one cannot replace apples with oranges (Y STR's vs Y SNP's) but one could substitute a "flavor" for actual results (mtDNA sampling vs FMS) and, as we are a long way from a complete phylogenetic picture based on mtDNA FMS, and even further from a comprehensive catalog of Y SNP's and other Y markers, those who shop in haste and on price may feel snookered when more complete data obsolete their results.
                            I do not agree with you. People for whom MtDNA is the main interest and people who will want to have the best test available will always buy the FMS, whatever other cheaper test is available. Other people, who just want to have some knowledge about their mtdna haplogroup will be glad to have their Geno 2.0 results. If they want more (to find out if they have private or family SNPs, to find FMS matches, to participate in defining new clade) they can always get the FMS later on. Those who will be satisfied with their Geno 2.0 results would never have bought the FMS anyway...

                            As for the Y-DNA, what better product do you compare it with, the WTY ? At 900$ and no assurance of getting any result, it isn't really in the same league. By the way, Thomas Krahn announced that FTDNA would accept now for the WTY only people who already have done the Geno 2.0 anyway...

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