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Can Geno 2 replace FF ?

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  • Can Geno 2 replace FF ?

    Not knowing how FTDNA will transfer our Geno2 info into our existing FTDNA accounts... I was wondering if our Geno2 autosomal results will be able to be used as a replacement for FF.

    I just purchased two FF kits for my parents and now I'm thinking I should have purchased the Geno2 kits instead. That way I end up knowing my fathers mtDNA haplogroup as a bonus, and I still get their autosomal results for FF.

    Does anyone know about this?
    thanks in advance.

  • #2
    The answer is no. The two tests are completely different.

    FF doesn't test Y-SNP and Mt-SNP, but 700000 autosomal SNPs. It enables you to find matching cousins in your entire tree.

    Geno 2.0 tests the Y-SNP and Mt-SNP. It also tests 130000 SNPs. It doesn't give you any autosomal matches. However it should define your ancestry much better that you could with any other test.

    So Geno 2.0 won't replace FF. Both tests are complementary.

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    • #3
      Thanks,
      I'm just wondering about the autosomal portion of Geno2.

      Since it does test autosomal DNA in order to tell your ethnic breakdown, I thought I might be able to download the autosomal results (as you can with FF) and use them with GEDmatch.com, or perhaps upload them to FTDNA for FF (like a transfer from 23andMe)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Neves View Post
        Thanks,
        I'm just wondering about the autosomal portion of Geno2.

        Since it does test autosomal DNA in order to tell your ethnic breakdown, I thought I might be able to download the autosomal results (as you can with FF) and use them with GEDmatch.com, or perhaps upload them to FTDNA for FF (like a transfer from 23andMe)
        As the previous poster wrote, Geno 2.0 and Family Finder both test autosomal SNPs, but not for the same purposes. The main purpose of FF is to find cousins in the FF database. Population Finder, which has a lot of problems, was only added on to FF.

        The 130,000 autosomal SNPs that Geno 2.0 tests are what are called "ancestry informative markers" (AIMs). These are SNPs that differ in their frequency between different ethnic groups/geographic regions. So, all they will tell you is the ethnic/geographic admixture of the person tested. Geno 2.0 will not look for long shared segments of continuous SNPs, which is what FF does to find cousins. Geno 2.0 just tests the 130,000 AIMs spread throughout the 22 pairs of autosomal chromosomes. As Itai wrote, Geno 2.0 should be superior to other admixture tests, certainly much better than Population Finder.

        FTDNA has not announced any plans to allow uploads of the autosomal SNPs from Geno 2.0 into FTDNA accounts; they have stated that the yDNA SNP results can be uploaded to FTDNA accounts. I don't know if there's a way for FTDNA or Gedmatch.com to incorporate the autosomal SNP results from Geno 2.0, although someone may come with a way to do it.

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        • #5
          2.0

          It sounds to me from what every one is saying is the 2.0 will actually be better in telling the ethnicity than PF or RF at 23 or Ancestry? I am waiting for the Nat Geo 2.0 test to come as I got it on the discount price they offered for my husband because we want to know his Y and Mt haplogroup and it was a great price compared to the other companies. But I am the one that needs to zero in better on my fathers unknown heritage and ethnicity so maybe if it is better than all other tests for that I should use it. What do you all think ???

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          • #6
            Originally posted by auntsha View Post
            It sounds to me from what every one is saying is the 2.0 will actually be better in telling the ethnicity than PF or RF at 23 or Ancestry? ...
            You have a complete misunderstanding of what you are being told. Geno 2.0 tests Y-DNA and mtDNA. Your Y-DNA tells you nothing about your mother. A man's mtDNA tells him nothing about his father. These two tests miss completely two of your grandparents, six of your great grand parents, fourteen of your great-great grandparents, etc. Autosomal DNA is the only way to learn anything about the genetic heritage between your all-male paternal line and your all-female maternal line.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MFWare View Post
              You have a complete misunderstanding of what you are being told. Geno 2.0 tests Y-DNA and mtDNA. Your Y-DNA tells you nothing about your mother. A man's mtDNA tells him nothing about his father. These two tests miss completely two of your grandparents, six of your great grand parents, fourteen of your great-great grandparents, etc. Autosomal DNA is the only way to learn anything about the genetic heritage between your all-male paternal line and your all-female maternal line.
              Geno 2.0 tests yDNA, mtDNA and autosomal SNPs - see http://www.yourgeneticgenealogist.co...-tree-dna.html

              However, as Itai and I posted above, the autosomal SNPs are solely related to admixture analysis and can't be used to find cousins in a database like Family Finder or 23andMe do. If someone wants to get admixture analysis, which seems to be what auntsha is interested in, then Geno 2.0 is just what they're looking for.

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              • #8
                Thanks MMaddi. I am looking for the admixture and maybe I will use the test myself.

                Comment


                • #9
                  [QUOTE=FGSV;348732If I will do Geno 2, will it show to me my real Ancestry?[/QUOTE]

                  That depends, what do you mean by 'real ancestry'? The Geno 2 test will tell you the geographical origins of your paternal line from a few thousand years ago. It will also tell you the geographical origins of your maternal line from around 10,000 years ago. And it will give you a good idea as to the geographical origins of your other ancestors in the more recent past.

                  You'll also be able to search other people's results to see if there are distant relatives amongst them.

                  What it can't do is give you a complete family tree. Not even an incomplete family tree.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by FGSV
                    ...

                    My Population Finder is awful! If I would know about that, I would not have done it!

                    ...
                    Define awful. Don't go looking for magic bullets. Your admixture results will be determined by the reference populations used by your service's admix model. FT-DNA Population Finder, 23andMe, and AncestryDNA use different reference models. Therefore, they yield different results. This does not mean that they contradict each other or that one is "real" and that the others are not. Their results are complementary and are to be used as an aid in your documentary searches. Your matches' backgrounds will tell you a lot about your own--even those matches who refuse to communicate.

                    And another thing--just because you receive unexpected results does not mean that they are wrong. Just because you receive results that you don't understand does not mean that you should ignore them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FGSV
                      I have 58,59% of Russian: I don't have anything to do with Russian! This is awful!
                      I have 35,74% of Mozabite: I don't have anything to do with Mozabite, even if I admit that I must to have some moorish Ancestry, but not like that! This is awful too!

                      and, the worst: None Jewish by Population finder.
                      This is exactly what is expected from the current version of Population Finder for many Jewish people. I'm anything but a fan of PF. I think PF is complete crap due to a lack of populations and FTDNA's inability to explain the results to customers.

                      PF is just a simple match of the closest sample populations. It is nothing more then that! It does NOT necessarily mean you have any ancestry in those populations which is a huge misunderstanding by almost all of FTDNA's customers.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by FGSV
                        Thank you for your support, my friend thetick!
                        Sure.. I hope FTDNA takes the PF criticisms objectively and can create a much better PF 2.0 product. I think there is a very good chance PF 2.0 could be a very pleasant surprise for many. I'll be the first to praise it if comes close to my expectations.

                        In all fairness to FTDNA they did call it BETA, but that's no excuse for FTDNA's lack of communicating the meaning of the results known to common FTDNA customers. I actually think it was a good (for signing up customers) decision by FTDNA, but not so good for maintaining happy customers. FTDNA certainly would have fewer FF customers if PF's limitations were clearly explained.
                        Last edited by thetick; 9 October 2012, 08:34 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FGSV
                          ...

                          For me, the results of Population Finder are garbage, like one expert spoke before, and I WASTED MY MONEY DOING THIS TEST!

                          I AM CHAPFALLEN!

                          I hope that FamilyTreeDNA proves the opposite!
                          Your Judaism is not determined by your DNA. You wasted your money only if you refuse to understand the test and its results.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                            Geno 2.0 will not look for long shared segments of continuous SNPs, which is what FF does to find cousins. Geno 2.0 just tests the 130,000 AIMs spread throughout the 22 pairs of autosomal chromosomes.
                            True, Geno 2.0 will not "look for" shared segments, but I still think the test could have some level of utility for (close) cousin matching. It would depend on the SNP properties -- how they're distributed over the chromosomes, the amount of linkage disequilibrium, the minor allele frequencies in the relevant population, and so forth.

                            The higher SNP densities in FF may include lots of redundancies: if you have a particular allele for one SNP, you are highly likely to have a particular allele for the neighboring SNP (the definition of linkage disequilibrium). Back in the days when DNAPrint was in business, Tony Frudakis estimated that ~100 autosomal SNPs were as good as the 13 CODIS STR markers for paternity testing. STR markers shine because each marker has multiple possible alleles. Paternity testing is special, though, because matching is "obligatory": if an allele is found in a child, it MUST have come from one of the parents.

                            The question would be how easy it is to achieve a false positive result, e.g. if a 20 cM match between two parties harbors some differences within it that would be unmasked by more SNP coverage. In a few months, we'll have some empirical data to examine this question, but I would hazard a guess that Geno 2.0 could have some predictive value for 2nd cousin relationships. At that level, there are multiple segments of substantial length.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by thetick View Post
                              Sure.. I hope FTDNA takes the PF criticisms objectively and can create a much better PF 2.0 product. I think there is a very good chance PF 2.0 could be a very pleasant surprise for many. I'll be the first to praise it if comes close to my expectations.

                              In all fairness to FTDNA they did call it BETA, but that's no excuse for FTDNA's lack of communicating the meaning of the results known to common FTDNA customers. I actually think it was a good (for signing up customers) decision by FTDNA, but not so good for maintaining happy customers. FTDNA certainly would have fewer FF customers if PF's limitations were clearly explained.
                              PF was not developed by FTDNA staff; it was outsourced. Frankly, I don't think FTDNA really knew what it was getting nor how to interpret the results.

                              I heard a funny story that the first published results of PF caused many of known Jewish descent to complain that PF hadn't detected it. So, they tweaked PF's controls (algorithms) and --tada! -- suddenly just about everybody was shown as having a Jewish percentage. (That certainly happened to me.) Then there was an outcry that too many of us are shown as part Jewish. LOL!

                              PF is a freebie that appeared after FF was launched. I have always thought of it as sort of sophisticated tea leaf reading.

                              Perhaps future version, based on more widely representative reference data sets, will be capable of better readings of the tea leaves, but at the end of the day these engines depend on the setting of various parameters to tweak the algorithms so there's always a degree of bias in there.

                              Personally, I don't think that PF has much of a bearing in selling FF. If they decided to drop PF altogether I think there'd still be a demand for FF, just as there was before PF appeared.

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