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Dr Elhaik has new theories on Ashkenas

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  • #16
    Elhaik has a pattern of sensational claims, often on controversial topics, backed up by very shoddy science. In my opinion, he is not a competent scientist and he has an agenda in making these unsupported, controversial claims. My guess is he is mostly motivated by self-promotion. That would be consistent with the GPS nonsense.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by GST View Post
      Elhaik has a pattern of sensational claims, often on controversial topics, backed up by very shoddy science. In my opinion, he is not a competent scientist and he has an agenda in making these unsupported, controversial claims. My guess is he is mostly motivated by self-promotion. That would be consistent with the GPS nonsense.
      Do you mean Elhaik's claim that GPS could postdict where a person lived 1000 years ago. Dienekes who invented the procedure used in GPS pointed to a mathematical problem. The GPS strategy yields a family of solutions rather than a single arbitrary solution. Mark Thomas thought that the claim was absurd since it relied on a naive understanding of genetics. Elhaik's study of Jews relied on his GPS claim

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      • #18
        I'm not sure the claim for AJ origins actually depends on the GPS stuff. As a thought experiment, the rest of the theory seems plausible enough and seems to "explain" a lot. Far from proof, but in the context of historical linguistics, I don't expect real proof. I'm not familiar with the literature; if we drop the GPS part of the argument, how much of Elhaik's proposal, if any, is actually new? Or is the appeal to genetic data the only novel element here?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by John McCoy View Post
          I'm not sure the claim for AJ origins actually depends on the GPS stuff. As a thought experiment, the rest of the theory seems plausible enough and seems to "explain" a lot. Far from proof, but in the context of historical linguistics, I don't expect real proof. I'm not familiar with the literature; if we drop the GPS part of the argument, how much of Elhaik's proposal, if any, is actually new? Or is the appeal to genetic data the only novel element here?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by John McCoy View Post
            I'm not sure the claim for AJ origins actually depends on the GPS stuff. As a thought experiment, the rest of the theory seems plausible enough and seems to "explain" a lot. Far from proof, but in the context of historical linguistics, I don't expect real proof. I'm not familiar with the literature; if we drop the GPS part of the argument, how much of Elhaik's proposal, if any, is actually new? Or is the appeal to genetic data the only novel element here?
            The linguistic analysis is the new part. It is Wexler's contribution. The jury is still out on the origins of Yiddish.

            The dna part is Elhaik's . It is his second attempt to disprove that Jews have a claim to Israel. The first study was severely criticized and was contrary to all other autosomal reseach on the topic. I will not repeat my comments on the second study but expect more criticism from experts to follow (Most of my comments had nothing to do with GPS). Behar published a major criticism of the first study---The research and references can be found in Wikipedia on Jewish Genetics.
            Last edited by josh w.; 25th April 2016, 10:29 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by josh w. View Post
              The linguistic analysis is the new part. It is Wexler's contribution. The jury is still out on the origins of Yiddish.

              The dna part is Elhaik's . It is his second attempt to disprove that Jews have a claim to Israel. The first study was severely criticized and was contrary to all other autosomal reseach on the topic. I will not repeat my comments on the second study but expect more criticism from experts to follow (Most of my comments had nothing to do with GPS). Behar published a major criticism of the first study---The research and references can be found in Wikipedia on Jewish Genetics.
              Actually Elhaik's claim about Jewish origins does depend on GPS. His conclusion about Jewish origins depends on the questionable claim that GPS can postdict where most Jews lived 1000 years ago.
              Last edited by josh w.; 26th April 2016, 02:09 AM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by josh w. View Post
                Actually Elhaik's claim about Jewish origins does depend on GPS. His conclusion about Jewish origins depends on the questionable claim that GPS can postdict where most Jews lived 1000 years ago.
                I know little about languages, but Wexler's theory has not received much support. Wikipedia's section on Yiddish listed some criticism of the theory, particularly in regard to the lack of empirical support. Britannica noted that western Yiddish appeared centuries before eastern Yiddish,

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                • #23
                  Elhaik's retraction

                  Elhaik's new theory depends on two points: his GPS postdiction as you put it and also his analysis of 367 Ashkenazi Geno 2 results (not NG which would not tell us anything except that the Jews are from - the Jewish Diaspora). He demonstrates that Ashkenazi Jews are remarkably homogeneous. The percentages they have of Mediterranean, South West Asian and Northern European population groups is very similar, with a standard 2% Sub-Saharan African component and having a variable only in a 2-3% North East Asian component present only in some. This is certainly a retraction of his earlier view which denied the homogeneity of Ashkenazi Jews. I find this analysis very useful in understanding my Geno 2 results and those of my mother's brother, which of course fit the Ashkenazi pattern. Where this homogeneity arose is a different question.

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                  • #24
                    Isn't it amazing so many pseudo geneticists can make a claim that Jews represent a unified race/ethnicity yet they seem to "claim" Jews migrated from anywhere "except" Israel? That is what I call an agenda.

                    I've read Eran Elhaiks paper, and his citation for example from Kevin Brooks book the Jews Of Khazaria is completely taken out of it's original context, Kevin Brooks posted on forumbiodiversity about it that it was never fixed, if I recall, it was supposedly on the origin of the Cohens.

                    Elhaik absolutely has a agenda, he is hostile towards any concepts that are critical of his, and his papers seem to be a favorite amongst anti semites like Jeff Rense and Texe Marrs.

                    There has been plenty of studies proving Jews middle eastern origin and the disrespect Elhaik has towards other geneticists means I don't take anything he says serious.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Pilman View Post
                      Isn't it amazing so many pseudo geneticists can make a claim that Jews represent a unified race/ethnicity yet they seem to "claim" Jews migrated from anywhere "except" Israel? That is what I call an agenda.

                      I've read Eran Elhaiks paper, and his citation for example from Kevin Brooks book the Jews Of Khazaria is completely taken out of it's original context, Kevin Brooks posted on forumbiodiversity about it that it was never fixed, if I recall, it was supposedly on the origin of the Cohens.

                      Elhaik absolutely has a agenda, he is hostile towards any concepts that are critical of his, and his papers seem to be a favorite amongst anti semites like Jeff Rense and Texe Marrs.

                      There has been plenty of studies proving Jews middle eastern origin and the disrespect Elhaik has towards other geneticists means I don't take anything he says serious.
                      According to a study by Bray, Ashkenazis are less homogeneous than other Europeans. Jews generally did not practice more than average endogeny unless this was forced by anti-Semitism

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SHV View Post
                        Elhaik's new theory depends on two points: his GPS postdiction as you put it and also his analysis of 367 Ashkenazi Geno 2 results (not NG which would not tell us anything except that the Jews are from - the Jewish Diaspora). He demonstrates that Ashkenazi Jews are remarkably homogeneous. The percentages they have of Mediterranean, South West Asian and Northern European population groups is very similar, with a standard 2% Sub-Saharan African component and having a variable only in a 2-3% North East Asian component present only in some. This is certainly a retraction of his earlier view which denied the homogeneity of Ashkenazi Jews. I find this analysis very useful in understanding my Geno 2 results and those of my mother's brother, which of course fit the Ashkenazi pattern. Where this homogeneity arose is a different question.
                        The fact that Ashkenazis show a distinct pattern does not mean that they are more homogeneous than other groups. One has to look at the standard deviations rather than the means.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SHV View Post
                          Elhaik's new theory depends on two points: his GPS postdiction as you put it and also his analysis of 367 Ashkenazi Geno 2 results (not NG which would not tell us anything except that the Jews are from - the Jewish Diaspora). He demonstrates that Ashkenazi Jews are remarkably homogeneous. The percentages they have of Mediterranean, South West Asian and Northern European population groups is very similar, with a standard 2% Sub-Saharan African component and having a variable only in a 2-3% North East Asian component present only in some. This is certainly a retraction of his earlier view which denied the homogeneity of Ashkenazi Jews. I find this analysis very useful in understanding my Geno 2 results and those of my mother's brother, which of course fit the Ashkenazi pattern. Where this homogeneity arose is a different question.
                          As you should have known, I did not introduce the term 'postdiction'. In the field of prediction it refers to taking present information to estimate past phenomena. For example seeking the correlation between present aggression and abuse in childhood.
                          Last edited by josh w.; 13th July 2016, 12:55 PM.

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                          • #28
                            I found this paper, you can upload it yourself from PubMed

                            Nat Commun. 2014 Sep 9;5:4835. doi: 10.1038/ncomms5835.
                            Sequencing an Ashkenazi reference panel supports population-targeted personal genomics and illuminates Jewish and European origins.
                            Carmi S1, Hui KY2, Kochav E1, Liu X3, Xue J1, Grady F1, Guha S4, Upadhyay K5, Ben-Avraham D6, Mukherjee S7, Bowen BM2, Thomas T8, Vijai J8, Cruts M9, Froyen G10, Lambrechts D11, Plaisance S12, Van Broeckhoven C9, Van Damme P13, Van Marck H12, Barzilai N6, Darvasi A14, Offit K8, Bressman S15, Ozelius LJ16, Peter I16, Cho JH2, Ostrer H17, Atzmon G6, Clark LN18, Lencz T19, Pe'er I20.

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                            • #29
                              Witch hunt

                              Anyone who attacks Eran has an agenda, not the other way around.
                              Brilliant guy who is accomplishing a lot and is real world respected.
                              Unlike random online haters.
                              His upcoming schedule
                              Coming up:

                              30-31/1/18: Personalized Medicine panel chairman and speaker at the Festival of Genomics, London, UK.
                              Taming the skew - controlling for population stratification in drug trials\association studies.

                              15/1/17: Invited speaker at the University in Krakow, Krakow, Poland.
                              Reconstructing the atlas of human migrations from the end of the Ice Age to modern times.

                              25/12/17: Invited speaker at the Open University, Raanana, Israel.
                              Uncovering ancient Ashkenaz with genetic GPS.

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                              • #30
                                This paper from Eran Elhaik et al has been heavily criticised. The GPS methodology is severely flawed. See this paper from Flegontov et al in response to Elhaik et al:

                                https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/8/7/2259/2467022

                                See also the response from Marion Aptroot which discusses all the linguistic flaws:

                                https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/8/6/1948/2574117

                                See also this critique of the GPS methodology from Dr Andrew Millard:

                                http://archaeometer.blogspot.co.uk/2...aik-et-al.html

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