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Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma

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  • #46
    When it comes to Family Finder matches from further back than say the last 5 or 6 generations, you will miss most of them. If the Roma admix occurred during colonial times on just one line of ancestry, I would be quite surprised if you found any Roma FF matches.

    Timothy Peterman

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    • #47
      Originally posted by underwaterlily View Post
      I have suspected Roma ancestry (in no small part because everyone in my family calls my grandmother a "gypsy")
      From what you say, your grandmother is still living. It's advisable to test the eldest family members if possible, so it might be a good idea for you to have her do a Family Finder kit, if you can afford it (and she is open to doing it). Her percentages of whatever ethnicity will be larger, and may show something that your mother and you didn't inherit.

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      • #48
        On DNA.land I show 2.1% Indus Valley; could that represent Romani ancestry? For a long time I've been researching some of my wife's family with possible Romanichal origins (Lee, Gray, Taylor, Blythe, Smalls, living next to Stanleys). My son consistently shows about 2.19% South Asian on GEDmatch. I was surprised to see Indus Valley in my results, but when I began looking on FTDNA & 23andMe I found lots of Bailey DNA matches--and Short as well-- but I have no known Bailey ancestors (it is my understanding that Bailey and Short are Romani families in VA, NC, and SC. I'm also descended from a Carter family and that surname often appears with the other two). One of my distant cousins on Family Finder has the y-haplogroup H-M82. Initially, I thought the Indus Valley result was probably deeply ancestral Indo-European, but maybe it could be Romani?

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        • #49
          I think I do have matches with Romany people, based on a previous post. So how do I go about proving or disproving whether this is due to Romany ancestry or due to sharing non-Romany ancestry?

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          • #50
            @ Timothy, agreed most people will not match the Colonial Romany due to DNA recombination.
            I have a 6th cousin of the Locke surname FF tested and
            Y DNA tested, he and I are NOT an autosomal match, yet we are a 65/67 Y DNA match. Had we exclusively relied on the FF test, we would not have found one another because we do not share enough autosomal DNA to be a match.

            So even though he and I shared the same paternal Lock ancestor, our distant kinship to each other caused us to not be an FF match. We already knew we were related through the paper records research, but it took Y DNA testing to reconfirm that paper trail connection by being a Y DNA match.

            @ NCROOTS
            One of the reasons I shared the map for the Colonial American H1a - M82 male lineages, is to help participants like yourself find potential clues.

            The Bailey's of Virginia and Laurens County SC are clearly of Scottish Romany ancestry which is documented in the Scottish convict records. The Laurens County SC Bailey's appear to have migrated through the Southern States and have ties to multiple Southern States along the coast.
            Having FF matches to H1a - M82 Bailey participants tells me you need to keep researching the paper trail, that connection is likely there, you just haven't found it yet.

            The one Mr. Short in the project, he claims his is a case of NPE, that it is of his belief that Bailey is the biological surname, Short is not the biological connection and to back up his own claim, he had 2 other cousins of the Short surname Y DNA tested, confirming he is not a Y DNA match to his Short Y DNA lineage.

            Yes Short is a known surname in the Romanichal tree, but in this one case it appears this Short is likely a Bailey.

            The one Carter surname in the project, his is a very different case, he is a case of Romany / African slave admixture, that he traces his Carter paternal tree back to the Virginia slave plantations.

            Unknown to us if his Romany ancestor was a slave owner, or a slave himself, that remains unproven at this time. All we do know about Carter is that he is admittedly a slave descendant.

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            • #51
              Just as an example.
              If someone were trying to prove a connection to my Lock / Locke family tree ( both surnames are correct, Lock appears to be the original spelling, Locke spelling didn't seem to be used until after 1850's ), it is helpful for me to share all that I know with participants who match me.

              I built this image to show exactly which branches of my tree that have Y DNA tested for the Locke project.
              It is one thing for participants to know Lock / Locke is in H1a - M82 but have no idea how or why we are FF matching, but when I share this kind of information, can help some participants better see a potential connection.
              Attached Files

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              • #52
                Thank you very much Donald! My 8th great-grandfather was African. He was brought to Virginia from The Gambia in the 1660s, so such an admixture would not be surprising in my family. I will certainly do some more investigating-- thanks again!

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by NCroots View Post
                  Thank you very much Donald! My 8th great-grandfather was African. He was brought to Virginia from The Gambia in the 1660s, so such an admixture would not be surprising in my family. I will certainly do some more investigating-- thanks again!
                  Carter, Ruffin and Jewell surnames whom are of Romany / African admixture from the slave era, all appear to have originated from the Virginia plantations, each carries
                  Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 with the DYS 425 = 0 null mutation.

                  Jewell is we are pretty certain a Lock descendant.

                  So we do have at least 3 participants whom are clearly of Romany / African admixture from the Colonial era in the DNA project.

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                  • #54
                    Finnish & Roma???

                    Something I've noticed is that, on the same side of the family where I suspect the Roma ancestry, participants have been getting autosomal matches who live in Finland & appear to be of entirely Finnish ancestry.

                    I am wondering if the two suggested ancestries could be identical.

                    Timothy Peterman

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                      Finnish & Roma???

                      Something I've noticed is that, on the same side of the family where I suspect the Roma ancestry, participants have been getting autosomal matches who live in Finland & appear to be of entirely Finnish ancestry.

                      I am wondering if the two suggested ancestries could be identical.

                      Timothy Peterman
                      Hi Timothy

                      So far I personally have not seen one male from the Scandinavia region found in Y Haplogroup H1a - M82, which in my humble opinion makes me question if we are not looking at a case of mistaken identity.

                      In most Romany DNA studies that have been published, they almost always found H1a - M82 in upwards of 50% of the Rrom male population through out Europe.
                      For those specific populations claiming a Romany ancestry, to lack any evidence of M82 in their population is troubling to me.

                      The Leicester University British Romany study has already identified 22% of the British Romany male population carrying H1a - M82 and that was a small sampling of the British Romany population.

                      I see those claims all the time, people claiming Romany ancestry, but their Y DNA and mtDNA tests are not pointing to any South Asian ancestry, which suggests to me they are likely not of the "Egyptian" clan or also known as the Romany / Gypsy people.

                      For me it is kind of hard to prove a Romany ancestry if those populations lack the 2 key South Asian Haplogroups known to be found in all Romany family clans of Europe,
                      Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 and mt Haplogroup M5a1b*.

                      There are many folks with many misconceptions of who the Romany Gypsy people are, and I strongly believe Europeans far to often wrongly believe various nomadic Europeans are of Romany ancestry which I am having a difficult time agreeing with their claims because they lack the 2 key South Asian Haplogroups found in all Romany family clans.

                      Don't get me wrong here, I am told there are true Romany in those regions, but so far they are not involved in genetic genealogy that I am aware of.
                      Last edited by Donald Locke; 9th June 2016, 07:25 AM.

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                      • #56
                        @ Timothy

                        Here is the Romanimanuch DNA project link, note that there are no Y DNA participants found in H1a - M82, and only one female mt M5a1b found so far in the participants tested so far.

                        https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...ch/dna-results


                        Either they are not testing the right participants, and or the Romanimanuch are not related to the Romany "Egyptian" clan? If the Romanimaunch clan were South Asian in origin like has been claimed, why aren't they finding any South Asian Haplogroups in that population on a regular basis?

                        I would think very differently had that project been producing South Asian Haplogroups, helping prove their own case that they are South Asian in origin.
                        Case of mistaken identity?

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                        • #57
                          How much is Roma

                          OK does anyone have any idea what sort of admixture would be typical of Gypsy, among those that do have indications?

                          Our family is all Isles, which was a surprise as it was considered one of my ggms Alice Hughes had 'dark blood'. However, I noticed her father is from a part of Essex often associated with Gypsies.

                          On FF my aunt shows up as 2% S-central Asian. On the Harappa tool at gedmatch she comes up with a big wad of ‘Baloch’ (over 20% on #11); as well over 40% ‘Mediterranean’ and 14% ‘Caucasian’ on some chromosomes, over 7.5% SW Asian on three chromosomes, and a little bit of almost everything else, which probably isn’t reliable. I have no idea whether this is usual.

                          I also have a similar result.

                          With this outcome, I think we certainly cant discount the Gypsy theory. Any opinions? Anyone seen a real Roma result on this tool?
                          Last edited by coad; 16th December 2016, 09:42 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Hi Donald,

                            I have recently learned through DNA testing and putting the pieces together that I am likely Roma. My grandmother was dark and from western Virginia. She always told people she was Cherokee, but I have no Native American DNA. What I do show both here and at Gedmatch is 2-4% South Asian (Indian) DNA and some Middle Eastern as well. I do know that the Indian DNA is an indicator of possible Roma ancestry, and given that my grandmother was from western Virginia, it makes sense that she would be Roma as there are a lot of them in that region.

                            I just checked myself on Gedmatch against you and the list you showed below. I only checked the first six on your list, and I am related to 5 of them, and also you (so 6 total out of 7 I checked). I have the highest match with you actually, at 5.8 cm. I will need to check the remaining people on your list later. Since I match almost all of them (even at a relatively low cm level) should I feel confident at this point that I am in fact part Romanichal?


                            Crystal


                            Originally posted by Donald Locke View Post
                            Here are a few Romany / Romany mixed participants gedmatch numbers in case you want to compare to them too.

                            Gedmatch ID
                            M063700
                            F219180
                            F286069
                            F272934
                            A659381
                            F220016
                            M105137
                            F177569
                            M574332
                            F346924
                            F289714
                            M123704


                            That is by no means a complete list, just a few I picked out. Most are Romanichal / Romanichal mixed participants.

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                            • #59
                              Following up to add that I checked all of the Gedmatch numbers you gave and I match all but one of them, between 3 and 6 cms. .

                              Originally posted by Donald Locke View Post
                              Here are a few Romany / Romany mixed participants gedmatch numbers in case you want to compare to them too.

                              Gedmatch ID
                              M063700
                              F219180
                              F286069
                              F272934
                              A659381
                              F220016
                              M105137
                              F177569
                              M574332
                              F346924
                              F289714
                              M123704


                              That is by no means a complete list, just a few I picked out. Most are Romanichal / Romanichal mixed participants.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Possible Romany ancestors

                                I also tested my GEDMATCH- A548614 with Donalds and there was 7cm. However, I've tested all the others and I didn't match any of them. Would this mean It's likely we have common ancestors through a non romani line? I also have 12% Baloch when testing through Harrapa, 10% of Gedrosia,about 1-2 % South Asian, 4% West Asian and substantial amount of east european and meditteranean . A lot of my family members on my Dads side and me included are fairly dark with brown eyes, olive skin and I believe it may be a possible Romany connection.

                                Robert Hudson
                                Last edited by Robob123; 6th April 2017, 07:25 PM.

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