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Origins, admixture and founder lineages in European Roma

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  • #16
    The Supplementary Tables (xls 696K) from that study maybe very useful too. In that table, they identify the Roma participants very clearly.


    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015201a.html

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    • #17
      I am F012148. F226374 is my second cousin, William G. Lyons. Both of us are great grandsons of Edwin Hall.

      Timothy Peterman

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      • #18
        This is very interesting. My wife's family has some oral history which seems to indicate Romani or Traveller ancestry. My son shows some South Asian in his DNA. When I lowered the threshold to 3.0 cM at GEDmatch, my wife matched both kits F21343 and F226374 at the exact same spot on Chromosome 6. Maybe this is a Romanichal match? Her GEDmatch kit is M16752. Her family names thought to possible have Romani connections include Lee, Gray, Taylor, Blythe, and Smalls

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        • #19
          Sorry, her kit is M161752, I left out a digit in the previous post. Also, her sister's kit is M805045 and my son is M728015.

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          • #20
            This is a bit more complicated. Donald matches me, but he doesn't match my dad or either of his brothers. Donald does match two of my dad's cousins (SJB F212656 & WGL F226374).

            Donald also matches my maternal aunt (M L Veasman F021616), as well as myself.

            Of course, I don't know if in either overlap, South Asian ancestry was involved. M L Veasman only has 0.14% South Asian ancestry. I have 0.87% South Asian.

            My dad has 2.59% South Asian. I think it is most likely that my aunt & I are related to Donald, but through a non-South Asian part of his family.

            I suspect that my father did get his South Asian from a Romani source, as did his various maternal cousins. My father & his brothers didn't inherit any matching segments with Donald, although my father's cousins (SJB & WGL) did.

            Timothy Peterman

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            • #21
              Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
              Regarding the sharing invitation, what name should I look for? You can also send an invitation to the following:

              Timothy Peterman
              I have sent you an invitation at 23andme.

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              • #22
                I just checked. I don't see the invitation yet.

                Timothy Peterman

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by NCroots View Post
                  This is very interesting. My wife's family has some oral history which seems to indicate Romani or Traveller ancestry. My son shows some South Asian in his DNA. When I lowered the threshold to 3.0 cM at GEDmatch, my wife matched both kits F21343 and F226374 at the exact same spot on Chromosome 6. Maybe this is a Romanichal match? Her GEDmatch kit is M16752. Her family names thought to possible have Romani connections include Lee, Gray, Taylor, Blythe, and Smalls
                  The surnames you mention for the most part are very common surnames, yes they are known surnames in the Romanichal clan of the UK, but they may or may not be Romany.

                  If you could convince one of the Lee men from your tree to do the Y DNA test, you could compare him to the Romany Lee participant who is in H1a - M82. That would be a real find for you if your Lee lineage matches the Romanichal Lee participant.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                    This is a bit more complicated. Donald matches me, but he doesn't match my dad or either of his brothers. Donald does match two of my dad's cousins (SJB F212656 & WGL F226374).

                    Donald also matches my maternal aunt (M L Veasman F021616), as well as myself.

                    Of course, I don't know if in either overlap, South Asian ancestry was involved. M L Veasman only has 0.14% South Asian ancestry. I have 0.87% South Asian.

                    My dad has 2.59% South Asian. I think it is most likely that my aunt & I are related to Donald, but through a non-South Asian part of his family.

                    I suspect that my father did get his South Asian from a Romani source, as did his various maternal cousins. My father & his brothers didn't inherit any matching segments with Donald, although my father's cousins (SJB & WGL) did.

                    Timothy Peterman
                    Yes it is complicated I agree, and I am not sure if the no matches is a result of recombination or a result of no kinship, hard to say for certain.

                    Actually I had no idea I was matching so many people from your tree Timothy, interesting! But you are right, it is just as easily a non Romany connection from the colonial era.

                    Consider this though. Bennett Greenspan himself years ago told me that Y Haplo H* is found in less then 2% of the world male population. And for me to find and identify that many H1a - M82 male lineages of multiple surnames with direct trees to the colonial era from Virginia and one from South Carolina, tells me that there was a much larger Romany population then we know about.

                    Think about it, for every one H1a male lineage of Romany origins being identified, there is likely half a dozen to a dozen more lineages whom are Romany mixed but carry the more common European Haplogroups. Only 22% of the British Romany male population " Leicester University Romany DNA study" was proven to carry H1a, that means the rest of the admixture Romany / European / British carry the more common European Y Haplogroups but are clearly Romany / Romany mixed.

                    It is in my humble opinion that there were far more Romany / Romany mixed people in the American Colonies then we know about and any one of those individuals could explain some people's South Asian percentages in their FF reports.

                    Of the 13 colonies, why is Virginia the hot spot for finding Y Haplogroup H1a - M82 male lineages? Virtually all the H1a male lineages identified to date have direct trees tracing back to colonial Virginia, why? Because if you really look at the convict records for England and Scotland, those convict records often specifically state so and so an Egyptian / Gypsy was to be transported to Virginia.

                    That history exactly explains why we are finding this many H1a male lineages that are clearly of Romany origins having trees that trace back to colonial Virgina, because that is the colony they were transported to in the first place.
                    BUT! Because of admixture, only a select percentage of the Romany population carries South Asian Haplogroups, the rest carry typical European Haplogroups but are clearly Romany mixed when looking at their family trees.

                    So in my mind, where we find one H1a male lineage, we are likely to find a lot more Romany mixed people in the same region, but are carrying more common European Haplo's due to admixture and likely an admixture that happened prior to them comming to the colonies.

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                    • #25
                      @ Timothy
                      I do have one Locke / Hall marriage from that time era that maybe of interest to you, but not sure if it connects to your Hall tree?

                      Thomas Locke married Cynthia Hall December 27, 1809 Berkeley County, Virginia. Berkeley County was formerly a part of Frederick County, the people whom lived in that part of old Frederick County Va did not move, the county reformed around them to become what is now a part of Berkeley County.

                      So it makes me wonder if Cynthia Hall b. August 15, 1786, d. November 13, 1859 is a member of your Hall tree?
                      Her parents names are unknown to me at this time.

                      Also unknown to me if the Hall's of Barren County Kentucky are related to your Hall's of Virginia? I haven't really dug in to the Hall family tree of Barren County Ky yet to know where they had come from prior to migrating to Kentucky, but it is a real possibility they maybe related?

                      Most of the family's my Lock's are related to in Kentucky, came from Virginia, and I am sure a few of those family's likely had ties to old Frederick County and Berkeley County prior to their migration to Ky.

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                      • #26
                        Here are a few Romany / Romany mixed participants gedmatch numbers in case you want to compare to them too.

                        Gedmatch ID
                        M063700
                        F219180
                        F286069
                        F272934
                        A659381
                        F220016
                        M105137
                        F177569
                        M574332
                        F346924
                        F289714
                        M123704


                        That is by no means a complete list, just a few I picked out. Most are Romanichal / Romanichal mixed participants.

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                        • #27
                          Thanks Donald.

                          I too have wondered if the Romany deportations to America were a lot greater in number than history records. If they had assumed English names and if the "crime" did not outright describe them as gypsies, there could have been a lot that have been undetected by genealogy.

                          This might be one of the more significant ethnic/ demographic phenomenons that genetic genealogy has uncovered.

                          Timothy Peterman

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Donald Locke View Post
                            Here are a few Romany / Romany mixed participants gedmatch numbers in case you want to compare to them too.

                            Gedmatch ID
                            M063700
                            F219180
                            F286069
                            F272934
                            A659381
                            F220016
                            M105137
                            F177569
                            M574332
                            F346924
                            F289714
                            M123704


                            That is by no means a complete list, just a few I picked out. Most are Romanichal / Romanichal mixed participants.
                            I think there is another explanation of how all of those participants are connected. F177569 is not found on GEDmatch, but all other of the kits listed have common ancestry in the 18th Century North Carolina human trafficking ring that I have spoken of before. To be more specific, they have a common male ancestor who had hundreds and hundreds of children with scores and scores of enslaved females. Though a few of the haplogroups of the women were African and Native American, most are ones from the Middle East, West Asia, Eastern Europe, Turkey, Caucasus, etc. They women likely were sold by Moslem slave traders to New World parties. Many of the female offspring were sold as brides, and some underwent another generation of breeding before the offspring were sold. A lot of us have common ancestry in this situation.

                            Jack Wyatt
                            Last edited by georgian1950; 22nd September 2015, 09:26 PM. Reason: typo

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                              I just checked. I don't see the invitation yet.

                              Timothy Peterman
                              Oops, I must have sent the invitation to Timothy J. Petersen, just sent another, hope this is you this time.

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                              • #30
                                I just found it. Thanks.

                                Timothy Peterman

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