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  • #31
    Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
    Well I have noticed that women think they have deep intuitive insights, but in the cases who don't have SNP typing available to them, I doubt that this extends to picking what Y SNP type to mate with.

    The high percentages of P312 and M222 certainly indicate an influx of fairly closed related males and probably the high numerical success of some dominant males before St. Patrick frowned on polygamy. It'll will be interesting to see the results of the Irish project.
    In western Europe the women seem to like having kids with men who are R1b.

    A few of the R1b male lines in Ireland are close but the majority aren't. I don't believe in the one man and 40 wifes theory. It didn't happen for a well known King Henry.He had no son's.

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    • #32
      "A few of the R1b male lines in Ireland are close but the majority aren't. I don't believe in the one man and 40 wifes theory. It didn't happen for a well known King Henry.He had no son's."

      It certainly wasn't the norm. I didn't mean too close - just the same large tribe. The population geneticists have found that up until the Neolithic (roughly) the effective population size for men was much less than for women. A simple way to interpret that is that the strong, fast, mighty hunter types were getting way more than their share of the women. About 10,000 years ago the ratio goes to near 1, suggesting that with farming came monogamy, at least on average. But it's clear that there were exceptions in big kings with big harems. The point of the OT telling us that Solomon had 300 wives and 1000 concubines was to say that he was the greatest king of all, like an American saying Babe Ruth hit a million home runs.

      Over some broad areas of Asia it has been estimated that 3% of the men are in that descent cluster that may well be Genghis Khan's. As time went on harem gathering and a ton of children faded away, but here and there it probably happened. I don't know what the anthropologists have found that would be relevant to Bronze Age patterns in Europe. There certainly were some kings/chieftains that could have supported a lot of wives/children and they had no belief system that I know of that would have prohibited it. Islam probably kept the practice alive in some places in the Middle East later on by giving it religious sanction.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
        "A few of the R1b male lines in Ireland are close but the majority aren't. I don't believe in the one man and 40 wifes theory. It didn't happen for a well known King Henry.He had no son's."

        It certainly wasn't the norm. I didn't mean too close - just the same large tribe. The population geneticists have found that up until the Neolithic (roughly) the effective population size for men was much less than for women. A simple way to interpret that is that the strong, fast, mighty hunter types were getting way more than their share of the women. About 10,000 years ago the ratio goes to near 1, suggesting that with farming came monogamy, at least on average. But it's clear that there were exceptions in big kings with big harems. The point of the OT telling us that Solomon had 300 wives and 1000 concubines was to say that he was the greatest king of all, like an American saying Babe Ruth hit a million home runs.

        Over some broad areas of Asia it has been estimated that 3% of the men are in that descent cluster that may well be Genghis Khan's. As time went on harem gathering and a ton of children faded away, but here and there it probably happened. I don't know what the anthropologists have found that would be relevant to Bronze Age patterns in Europe. There certainly were some kings/chieftains that could have supported a lot of wives/children and they had no belief system that I know of that would have prohibited it. Islam probably kept the practice alive in some places in the Middle East later on by giving it religious sanction.
        They are assuming that men who have the same haplotype today came from one man with 40 wives 2000 ybp. But, just like today we have lots of men with the WAMH so 6000 years from now the scientists will think that their male population all came from one man.

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        • #34
          "The subconscious mind is a composite of everything one sees, hears and any information the mind collects that it cannot otherwise consciously process to make meaningful sense. The conscious mind cannot always absorb disconnected information, as it would be an information overload, so the subconscious mind stores this information where it can be retrieved by the conscious mind when it needs to defend itself for survival (and for other reasons, such as solving puzzles)."

          The history of our species lie herein but we are unable to access it.

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          • #35
            This question and answer was posted on another forum today.
            "Couldn't M-222 reasonably be a La Tene marker in the Isles?"

            "I doubt if it arrived from the Continent with La Tene. It seems to me more probably home-grown. I just suspect that it moved to Ireland from Britain with La Tene."

            These two people know absolutely nothing about Irish history and the person who answered is trying to rewrite Irish history. That person is not Irish.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              This question and answer was posted on another forum today.
              "Couldn't M-222 reasonably be a La Tene marker in the Isles?"

              "I doubt if it arrived from the Continent with La Tene. It seems to me more probably home-grown. I just suspect that it moved to Ireland from Britain with La Tene."

              These two people know absolutely nothing about Irish history and the person who answered is trying to rewrite Irish history. That person is not Irish.
              If M222 is the Niall of the Nine Hostages signature then M222's ancestors came from Iberia not Britain.

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              • #37
                My understanding is that the WAMH is a widely observed pattern. What this paper identified is a handful of closely defined haplotypes that occur in unusually large numbers of individuals. The majority of haplotypes occurred in one individual in their sample. The ones they focused on occurred in 9-70 individuals. Haplotypes were not included in a cluster that did have the same SNP haplotype as the rest.

                There are certainly SNP clades in U106 and P312 that are numerically much more successful than others. It might be interesting for the population geneticists to try to figure out whether that reflects different ancient expansions or more recent differences.
                Last edited by PNGarrison; 23 March 2015, 03:54 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
                  My understanding is that the WAMH is a widely observed pattern. What this paper identified is a handful of closely defined haplotypes that occur in unusually large numbers of individuals. The majority of haplotypes occurred in one individual in their sample. The ones they focused on occurred in 9-70 individuals. Haplotypes were not included in a cluster that did have the same SNP haplotype as the rest.

                  There are certainly SNP clades in U106 and P312 that are numerically much more successful than others. It might be interesting for the population geneticists to try to figure out whether that reflects different ancient expansions or more recent differences.
                  The majority of testers with the WAMH have origins in the Isles. Why do you think that is ?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    The majority of testers with the WAMH have origins in the Isles. Why do you think that is ?
                    The fact that the WAMH is found in both P312 and U106 clades of R1b leads some posters to think that L11 and WAMH are contemporary. I don't think anyone is happy with an Isles origin for L11 but the Paris Basin could be the place. The 40% ancient autosomal dna from northern France to Britain might be a clue.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      The majority of testers with the WAMH have origins in the Isles. Why do you think that is ?
                      Is this your impression or do you actually have some numbers for this? Have you taken into account that people with British Isles ancestry are heavily overrepresented in the databases, skewing the distribution of WAMH from what it actually may be? If so, have you made an adjustment in your estimate to compensate for the skewing?

                      These are elementary questions of statistical analysis that you should consider.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                        Is this your impression or do you actually have some numbers for this? Have you taken into account that people with British Isles ancestry are heavily overrepresented in the databases, skewing the distribution of WAMH from what it actually may be? If so, have you made an adjustment in your estimate to compensate for the skewing?

                        These are elementary questions of statistical analysis that you should consider.
                        All you have to do is ask anyone who has the WAMH badge to tell you where the percentages of their 12 marker matches come from. It is all in their FTDNA homepages.

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                        • #42
                          What we see in the databases is biased by the fact that private genetic testing is illegal in France. A few people do it anyway, and there is academic data, but this could go a long way to accounting for why there is a bias towards the islands. I'd like to see how many kits FT and Geno 2 have done from Holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal.

                          Come to think of it, the forensic reference database might be more representative, since they aren't restricted by law in France and they try to distribute their reference testing evenly.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
                            What we see in the databases is biased by the fact that private genetic testing is illegal in France. A few people do it anyway, and there is academic data, but this could go a long way to accounting for why there is a bias towards the islands. I'd like to see how many kits FT and Geno 2 have done from Holland, Belgium, Spain and Portugal.

                            Come to think of it, the forensic reference database might be more representative, since they aren't restricted by law in France and they try to distribute their reference testing evenly.
                            I examined the WAMH 12 marker haplotype in ysearch.
                            Isles 1000 plus matches.
                            Western Europe 345
                            Eastern Europe 47
                            Scandinavia 35

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                            • #44
                              1798, give also your Y-12 Ancestral Origins percentages per country. Absolute numbers are a bad measure when we know that the data is biased.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by 192971 View Post
                                1798, give also your Y-12 Ancestral Origins percentages per country. Absolute numbers are a bad measure when we know that the data is biased.

                                The WAMH haplotype is 13,24,14,11,11,14,12,12,12,13,13,29 and it is not mine.

                                For my haplotype Ireland and France 1.7% and that is the best at 12 markers.

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