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The Y-chromosome tree bursts into leaf

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  • #16
    1620 years is way too recent. I was just applying your logic of 135 years per SNP; of course, I was only counting nested SNPs (levels of hierarchy).

    You are talking about proposed trees. I looked at Family Tree DNA's tree & didn't count any deeper than about 11 or 12 there. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt & say there are 40 levels of nested SNPs. That would provide an origin for U106 in 3400 BC, probably a thousand years too early. 32.5 levels would take you back to 2400 BC.

    Timothy Peterman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
      1620 years is way too recent. I was just applying your logic of 135 years per SNP; of course, I was only counting nested SNPs (levels of hierarchy).

      You are talking about proposed trees. I looked at Family Tree DNA's tree & didn't count any deeper than about 11 or 12 there. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt & say there are 40 levels of nested SNPs. That would provide an origin for U106 in 3400 BC, probably a thousand years too early. 32.5 levels would take you back to 2400 BC.

      Timothy Peterman
      You cannot access the Big-Y files until you join the U106 at Yahoo group. There you will see a Tsunami of SNPs.
      I am sure you have seen the 43 SNPs at the M269 level when you looked at the tree. It is possible that M269 could be the last in line but it would be better if they were all in the correct order. It is evidence of a bottleneck and this bottleneck is not connected to the Neolithic.
      Last edited by 1798; 9th December 2014, 06:37 AM.

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      • #18
        I assume that you are talking about novel variants. I have 96 of them. Over 30 of them are shared with all other U152 participants, which indicates that they are higher on the tree. Has the tsunami been organized into a hierarchy of clades nested under clades? This usually can't happen until two "unrelated" participants are found to share a clade defining SNP that isn't shared by other participants.

        Any chance you could upload an image of the hige U106 tree?

        Timothy Peterman

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          I read the paper, how could M269 be 4,900 years old? There are 90 SNPs from M269 to the present.
          Mal'ta boy's remains R* was radio carbon dated to 24,000 ybp so how could M207 be 19,000 ybp?
          U106 is at least 6000 years old.
          Yes, the authors neglected to calibrate their clock (mutation rate) properly. You need to add 30-50% to their age numbers.
          Last edited by lgmayka; 9th December 2014, 09:44 AM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
            I assume that you are talking about novel variants. I have 96 of them. Over 30 of them are shared with all other U152 participants, which indicates that they are higher on the tree. Has the tsunami been organized into a hierarchy of clades nested under clades? This usually can't happen until two "unrelated" participants are found to share a clade defining SNP that isn't shared by other participants.

            Any chance you could upload an image of the hige U106 tree?

            Timothy Peterman
            The majority of SNPs found in the Big-Y have not been added to the U106 tree yet but you could ask Raymond Wing for a copy of the tree at present. It is his work.

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            • #21
              MJost calculated M269 to be from 9870 BC or 11,870 ybp.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                My uncle is R1b CTS7822.

                Timothy Peterman
                Timothy,
                Please make sure your uncle is a member of the R1b1a2 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project). An updated project phylogenetic research tree was posted yesterday. This tree includes data from the Hallast paper that is the subject of this thread.

                The Roman theories for the R1b-Z2103 clades in the Isles are out there. My problem with those theories is after 1600+ years, one would expect to see more R1b-Z2103 in the Isles than we are seeing. Perhaps something more recent like the Normans or Romanichals need to be considered too.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                  I assume that you are talking about novel variants. I have 96 of them. Over 30 of them are shared with all other U152 participants, which indicates that they are higher on the tree. Has the tsunami been organized into a hierarchy of clades nested under clades? This usually can't happen until two "unrelated" participants are found to share a clade defining SNP that isn't shared by other participants.

                  Any chance you could upload an image of the hige U106 tree?

                  Timothy Peterman
                  https://app.box.com/s/afqsrrnvv2d51msqcz2o

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thank you Ciaran. The link shows U106 with 16 levels at the deepest. At 135 years per SNP, that is 2160 years at the minimum average. Again, I don't think U106 is that young. I think 4,000 to 4,500 is more likely, but there is no evidence here supporting 6,000 years.

                    D. Clade, My uncle (kit 16910) has been part of the ht35 project for years. Unless more have been identified recently, Robinson, Seymour & Bennett are the only English surnames that are part of the R1b CTS7822 clade. I just bought an upgrade for my uncle to the Big Y.
                    Regarding the Romanichal possibility, my maternal uncle doesn't show any South Asian at Eurogenes13, but who knows, it could be a long way back. Now, my father & paternal uncles & their maternal Hall first cousins and second cousins do show South Asian at a low percentage (1% to 3%); they do have a complexion, hair color & eye color that is darker than normal for the Isles. I suspect that my g-g grandfather, James William Hall (1827-1874) may have had a substantial amount of Romanichal ancestry. I can't say for sure yet, but genetic indications make it more than plausible. The Halls are R1b L2, and go back to a family in Wiltshire, England. Which analysis tool do you think givers the best indication of Romanichal ancestry. Are they 100% South Asian? Or is the percentage lower?

                    I was browsing Eupedia earlier today & was pleased to see that Pres. John Adams is reported to be R1b L11*. Now for the story. I have a line of descent that goes back to Henry Adams & Edith Squire, who settled Braintree, MA back in the 1600s. I descend from Pelatiah Adams. A few years ago, I was trying to collect y-DNA haplogroup info for as many of my lines of descent as possible. I could see that the Henry Adams family was represented, but all were just estimated to be R1b M269. I contacted the administrator of the Adams Surname project & said that I would like to see a deep clade SNP test done on the one who was most closely related to my line. The participant agreed & I paid for the upgrade. When the results were posted, we learned that the Adams family (including the two Presidents) is L11*. I'm glad to see that this result is now getting wider recognition.

                    Timothy Peterman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                      Thank you Ciaran. The link shows U106 with 16 levels at the deepest. At 135 years per SNP, that is 2160 years at the minimum average. Again, I don't think U106 is that young. I think 4,000 to 4,500 is more likely, but there is no evidence here supporting 6,000 years.

                      D. Clade, My uncle (kit 16910) has been part of the ht35 project for years. Unless more have been identified recently, Robinson, Seymour & Bennett are the only English surnames that are part of the R1b CTS7822 clade. I just bought an upgrade for my uncle to the Big Y.
                      Regarding the Romanichal possibility, my maternal uncle doesn't show any South Asian at Eurogenes13, but who knows, it could be a long way back. Now, my father & paternal uncles & their maternal Hall first cousins and second cousins do show South Asian at a low percentage (1% to 3%); they do have a complexion, hair color & eye color that is darker than normal for the Isles. I suspect that my g-g grandfather, James William Hall (1827-1874) may have had a substantial amount of Romanichal ancestry. I can't say for sure yet, but genetic indications make it more than plausible. The Halls are R1b L2, and go back to a family in Wiltshire, England. Which analysis tool do you think givers the best indication of Romanichal ancestry. Are they 100% South Asian? Or is the percentage lower?

                      I was browsing Eupedia earlier today & was pleased to see that Pres. John Adams is reported to be R1b L11*. Now for the story. I have a line of descent that goes back to Henry Adams & Edith Squire, who settled Braintree, MA back in the 1600s. I descend from Pelatiah Adams. A few years ago, I was trying to collect y-DNA haplogroup info for as many of my lines of descent as possible. I could see that the Henry Adams family was represented, but all were just estimated to be R1b M269. I contacted the administrator of the Adams Surname project & said that I would like to see a deep clade SNP test done on the one who was most closely related to my line. The participant agreed & I paid for the upgrade. When the results were posted, we learned that the Adams family (including the two Presidents) is L11*. I'm glad to see that this result is now getting wider recognition.

                      Timothy Peterman
                      A lot of SNPs from the Big-Y have not been added. The average number of variants at present under U106 is 36.You are right, at 135 years per SNP it would not be 6000. The scientists have not established a definitive date for any subhaplogroup as yet.The reason that I suggest a date of 6000 years is it is in line with the Neolithic population explosion. From P311 downstream there are thousands of separate SNP branches unlike above it where there seems to be a lot of bottlenecks. Some R1b branches cannot have avoided the Neolithic.

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                      • #26
                        Have the new SNPs from the Big Y been isolated to lower branches of the U106 tree. Of my 96 novel variants (I am R1b L20*), about 1/3 are higher than U152 on the tree. All of the novel variants are new; they haven't been seen before. But it doesn't mean they are outlining new structure beneath the most derived clades on the y-tree. I suspect that Big Y will result in maybe 3 or 4 nested clades under each pre-Big Y terminal clade, but not much more.

                        All of the new U106 Big Y SNPs will extend it down to maybe 20 levels deep across the board; maybe deeper in some cases.

                        Timothy Peterman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                          I was browsing Eupedia earlier today & was pleased to see that Pres. John Adams is reported to be R1b L11*. Now for the story. I have a line of descent that goes back to Henry Adams & Edith Squire, who settled Braintree, MA back in the 1600s. I descend from Pelatiah Adams. A few years ago, I was trying to collect y-DNA haplogroup info for as many of my lines of descent as possible. I could see that the Henry Adams family was represented, but all were just estimated to be R1b M269. I contacted the administrator of the Adams Surname project & said that I would like to see a deep clade SNP test done on the one who was most closely related to my line. The participant agreed & I paid for the upgrade. When the results were posted, we learned that the Adams family (including the two Presidents) is L11*. I'm glad to see that this result is now getting wider recognition.

                          Timothy Peterman
                          This Adams line has been moved down a little farther now. I did Big Y on my Henry Adams descendant and he went down through CTS4528/DF100 to S6868, plus there are more then 30 novel variants still to be accounted for. He is in the ht35 project

                          Susan

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                          • #28
                            Excellent news on the Adams family. I see that clade now and thanks. Looks like this is nested under P311. ISOGG appears to be in the process of merging L51, P310 and P311 as a replacement to L11. Do you have any information regarding this change?

                            Timothy Peterman

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                              Thank you Ciaran. The link shows U106 with 16 levels at the deepest. At 135 years per SNP, that is 2160 years at the minimum average. Again, I don't think U106 is that young. I think 4,000 to 4,500 is more likely, but there is no evidence here supporting 6,000 years.

                              [SNIP]
                              Timothy Peterman
                              What is missing from this tree is all of the "Singleton" (ie SNPs not shared with any other U106+ Big Y tester). Some folks have only a couple of Singleton SNPs (as they have a fairly close relative tested). On the other end, we do have someone who has no currently share clade below U106 who has 41 Singletons. On average, there are roughly 20 singleton SNPs per individual. (20*135= 2700 years to be added to your 2160 age)

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                              • #30
                                Correction. Thanks to my computer screen & glasses, I said L51 was being collapsed into the replacement clade for L11. ISOGG actually shows L151.

                                Timothy Peterman

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