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Ancient genomes in Hungary from different times, Neolithic to Iron Age

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  • 1798
    replied
    M269 bottleneck 43 SNPs. L11 bottleneck 6 SNPs. That is both of them out of the Neolithic Revolution. So it has to be the SNPs downstream of these. That's the way I see it. The Tsunami of SNPs arrived after the birth of P311.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    The fact that you have not read the current literature on this subject explains the nature of your posts.

    If you want to read only that which supports the old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge hypothesis, you will be forced to read stuff from six to eight years and longer ago. Even the men who wrote that stuff have moved on. For example, you won't catch Dr. Spencer Wells, Dr. Jim Wilson, or Dr. Michael Hammer promoting it these days, although six or eight years ago all of them believed R1b spent the LGM in Franco-Cantabria. Science involves the constant acquisition of knowledge. Once scientists learn something that indicates their old ideas were wrong, they move on and adjust their thinking to the new information.

    You simply refuse to even read the new information.

    That is one reason why your posts are just not worthy of serious consideration.

    Declaring that there is an "Anywhere But Iberia" clan, and that Jean Manco is part of it, is a despicable attempt to discredit her work and has no basis in fact.

    You are the only one in any of these discussions with an obsession and a pretty transparent agenda.
    The fact that R1b-M343 is estimated to be 20-24,000 years old then R1b was in a refuge. Which refuge is a matter for debate. I asked a simple question and no-one could answer it. Which R1b SNPs are associated with the Neolithic?

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    "ABSTRACT
    Recently, the debate on the origins of the major European Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 has reignited, and opinion has moved away from Palaeolithic origins to the notion of a younger Neolithic spread of these chromosomes from the Near East. Here, we address this debate by investigating frequency patterns and diversity in the largest collection of R1b1b2-M269 chromosomes yet assembled. Our analysis reveals no geographical trends in diversity, in contradiction to expectation under the Neolithic hypothesis, and suggests an alternative explanation for the apparent cline in diversity recently described. We further investigate the young, STR-based time to the most recent common ancestor estimates proposed so far for R-M269-related lineages and find evidence for an appreciable effect of microsatellite choice on age estimates. As a consequence, the existing data and tools are insufficient to make credible estimates for the age of this haplogroup, and conclusions about the timing of its origin and dispersal should be viewed with a large degree of caution."

    Busby et al 2011.
    Busby's maps of M269 and L11 look similar. RxS127 shows a hotspot in what looks like Bulgaria.

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  • 1798
    replied
    "ABSTRACT
    Recently, the debate on the origins of the major European Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1b2-M269 has reignited, and opinion has moved away from Palaeolithic origins to the notion of a younger Neolithic spread of these chromosomes from the Near East. Here, we address this debate by investigating frequency patterns and diversity in the largest collection of R1b1b2-M269 chromosomes yet assembled. Our analysis reveals no geographical trends in diversity, in contradiction to expectation under the Neolithic hypothesis, and suggests an alternative explanation for the apparent cline in diversity recently described. We further investigate the young, STR-based time to the most recent common ancestor estimates proposed so far for R-M269-related lineages and find evidence for an appreciable effect of microsatellite choice on age estimates. As a consequence, the existing data and tools are insufficient to make credible estimates for the age of this haplogroup, and conclusions about the timing of its origin and dispersal should be viewed with a large degree of caution."

    Busby et al 2011.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    It could be true that bird brains think they know that, but no one else does.

    Take a look at the maps in Busby et al. The greatest frequency of R1bxS127 (L11) is on the west coast of the Black Sea. So that is where the SNP trail leads. L11 likely arose somewhere between the Black Sea and Central Europe.

    Besides, the issue is not really whether or not our R1b ancestors were already mostly L11+ when they entered Europe. The issues are when they entered and what the circumstances were.



    Have you actually read any of his work?

    Have you read Anthony, Manco, Renfrew, Ivanov and Gamkrelidze, Gimbutas, Harrison and Heyd, or any of the experts who deal with this topic?
    The majority of R1b males in western Europe are all L11. I bought Mallory's book.
    Last edited by 1798; 5 December 2014, 08:37 AM.

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  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Even the birds in the trees know that P311 did not originate in the Steppe.
    It could be true that bird brains think they know that, but no one else does.

    Take a look at the maps in Busby et al. The greatest frequency of R1bxS127 (L11) is on the west coast of the Black Sea. So that is where the SNP trail leads. L11 likely arose somewhere between the Black Sea and Central Europe.

    Besides, the issue is not really whether or not our R1b ancestors were already mostly L11+ when they entered Europe. The issues are when they entered and what the circumstances were.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    JP Mallory has a lot of stuff wrong in my opinion.
    Have you actually read any of his work?

    Have you read Anthony, Manco, Renfrew, Ivanov and Gamkrelidze, Gimbutas, Harrison and Heyd, or any of the experts who deal with this topic?

    Leave a comment:


  • Stevo
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I have no intention of reading the book because JM is one of the ABI (anywhere but Iberia) clan. Any book that you recommend has to do with your out "of the Steppe" with the IE obsession.
    The fact that you have not read the current literature on this subject explains the nature of your posts.

    If you want to read only that which supports the old R1b-in-the-FC-Ice-Age-Refuge hypothesis, you will be forced to read stuff from six to eight years and longer ago. Even the men who wrote that stuff have moved on. For example, you won't catch Dr. Spencer Wells, Dr. Jim Wilson, or Dr. Michael Hammer promoting it these days, although six or eight years ago all of them believed R1b spent the LGM in Franco-Cantabria. Science involves the constant acquisition of knowledge. Once scientists learn something that indicates their old ideas were wrong, they move on and adjust their thinking to the new information.

    You simply refuse to even read the new information.

    That is one reason why your posts are just not worthy of serious consideration.

    Declaring that there is an "Anywhere But Iberia" clan, and that Jean Manco is part of it, is a despicable attempt to discredit her work and has no basis in fact.

    You are the only one in any of these discussions with an obsession and a pretty transparent agenda.

    Leave a comment:


  • T E Peterman
    replied
    Mallory says, with regard to the R1b in Ireland, that there are two theories. He doesn't favor one over the other. He is completely open to the recent origins from Anatolia, the Pontic Steppe or elsewhere in the east.

    His approach, which is that of everyone else here, is to keep an open mind & follow the evidence to get answers.

    Of course he maintains (across several chapters) that Ireland was peopled during the Mesolithic. But he never asserts that R1b rose from among those people.

    Timothy Peterman

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    And? What has that got to do with reading other books?

    Does JP Mallory state that all other books on R1b origins are void because of this book?

    I can't help but notice from the summary that the following statement is made:

    "J. P. Mallory emphasizes that the Irish did not have a single origin, but are a product of multiple influences that can only be tracked by employing the disciplines of archaeology, genetics, geology, linguistics, and mythology."

    Did you not say in a previous post that you were only interested in genetics?

    Or is this different because it pertains to Irish archaeology, Irish linguistics and Irish mythology...and the rest is irrelevant?



    "Origin of the Steppe People"? What book is that?

    Are you stating that you only read articles and books that you feel apply to you?

    Then why would you want to know about the origins of P311 when it may have involved peoples/tribes from the Eurasian Steppe?
    Even the birds in the trees know that P311 did not originate in the Steppe.
    JP Mallory has a lot of stuff wrong in my opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I have read "Origins of The Irish".
    And? What has that got to do with reading other books?

    Does JP Mallory state that all other books on R1b origins are void because of this book?

    I can't help but notice from the summary that the following statement is made:

    "J. P. Mallory emphasizes that the Irish did not have a single origin, but are a product of multiple influences that can only be tracked by employing the disciplines of archaeology, genetics, geology, linguistics, and mythology."

    Did you not say in a previous post that you were only interested in genetics?

    Or is this different because it pertains to Irish archaeology, Irish linguistics and Irish mythology...and the rest is irrelevant?

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    I am not interested in Origins of The Steppe People because I don't believe it has anything to do with me.
    "Origin of the Steppe People"? What book is that?

    Are you stating that you only read articles and books that you feel apply to you?

    Then why would you want to know about the origins of P311 when it may have involved peoples/tribes from the Eurasian Steppe?
    Last edited by N21163; 4 December 2014, 06:42 PM.

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  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    Have you read the books?

    SNPs are still being investigated.
    I have read "Origins of The Irish". I am not interested in Origins of The Steppe People because I don't believe it has anything to do with me.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    These books are about tying R1b P311 to the IE and you say that these SNPs are still being investigated.
    Have you read the books?

    SNPs are still being investigated.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by N21163 View Post
    No it doesn't.



    Quite a vague question.

    The suitably vague response is that specific SNPs are still being investigated.

    New SNPs are discovered daily and research is trying to keep up.

    People can ask questions all they like but the answers may not be readily apparent.

    Be patient and the answers will come to light in time.

    In the meantime, read the books that have been suggested to you.



    If you choose to interpret MMaddi's post 106 then you are not helping yourself or the situation. I would suggest re-reading post 106 again as it clearly identifies flaws in your approach and reasoning.
    These books are about tying R1b P311 to the IE and you say that these SNPs are still being investigated.

    Leave a comment:


  • N21163
    replied
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    This statement about X,Y,Z nullifies the first piece that you wrote.
    No it doesn't.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    What are your conclusions about R1b P311?
    Quite a vague question.

    The suitably vague response is that specific SNPs are still being investigated.

    New SNPs are discovered daily and research is trying to keep up.

    People can ask questions all they like but the answers may not be readily apparent.

    Be patient and the answers will come to light in time.

    In the meantime, read the books that have been suggested to you.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    What you wrote here shows how far in front of some people I am. Thanks. I never realized it until I joined these forums how brainy I really am.
    If you choose to interpret MMaddi's post 106 then you are not helping yourself or the situation. I would suggest re-reading post 106 again as it clearly identifies flaws in your approach and reasoning.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Originally posted by Stevo View Post
    Read it yourself and find out.

    You should also read Jean Manco's book, Ancestral Journeys.
    I have no intention of reading the book because JM is one of the ABI (anywhere but Iberia) clan. Any book that you recommend has to do with your out "of the Steppe" with the IE obsession.

    Leave a comment:

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