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Ancient genomes in Hungary from different times, Neolithic to Iron Age

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  • Ancient genomes in Hungary from different times, Neolithic to Iron Age

    Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...comms6257.html

    Full text free;13 genomes; Y haplogroups are I2a (2), C6 (2), J2a1 (1) and N (1); mito haplogroups are in Suppl. Table 12

    Abstract
    The Great Hungarian Plain was a crossroads of cultural transformations that have shaped European prehistory. Here we analyse a 5,000-year transect of human genomes, sampled from petrous bones giving consistently excellent endogenous DNA yields, from 13 Hungarian Neolithic, Copper, Bronze and Iron Age burials including two to high (~22 × ) and seven to ~1 × coverage, to investigate the impact of these on Europe’s genetic landscape. These data suggest genomic shifts with the advent of the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages, with interleaved periods of genome stability. The earliest Neolithic context genome shows a European hunter-gatherer genetic signature and a restricted ancestral population size, suggesting direct contact between cultures after the arrival of the first farmers into Europe. The latest, Iron Age, sample reveals an eastern genomic influence concordant with introduced Steppe burial rites. We observe transition towards lighter pigmentation and surprisingly, no Neolithic presence of lactase persistence.

  • #2
    Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
    Genome flux and stasis in a five millennium transect of European prehistory

    http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/14...comms6257.html

    Full text free;13 genomes; Y haplogroups are I2a (2), C6 (2), J2a1 (1) and N (1); mito haplogroups are in Suppl. Table 12

    Abstract
    The Great Hungarian Plain was a crossroads of cultural transformations that have shaped European prehistory. Here we analyse a 5,000-year transect of human genomes, sampled from petrous bones giving consistently excellent endogenous DNA yields, from 13 Hungarian Neolithic, Copper, Bronze and Iron Age burials including two to high (~22 × ) and seven to ~1 × coverage, to investigate the impact of these on Europe’s genetic landscape. These data suggest genomic shifts with the advent of the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages, with interleaved periods of genome stability. The earliest Neolithic context genome shows a European hunter-gatherer genetic signature and a restricted ancestral population size, suggesting direct contact between cultures after the arrival of the first farmers into Europe. The latest, Iron Age, sample reveals an eastern genomic influence concordant with introduced Steppe burial rites. We observe transition towards lighter pigmentation and surprisingly, no Neolithic presence of lactase persistence.
    There was no R1b among theses remains which shows that R1b did not come from eastern Europe.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      There was no R1b among theses remains which shows that R1b did not come from eastern Europe.
      No, it shows only that R1b did not come from the Great Hungarian Plain, which is only part of the Carpathian Basin.

      The lack of R1b in the ancient Hungarian samples is not nearly as shocking as the lack of R1a, which everyone agrees is (roughly) Eastern European.

      It is almost enough to make one suspect that R1b, like R1a, entered Western Europe through Corded Ware (which mostly avoided the Carpathian Basin).
      Last edited by lgmayka; 1st November 2014, 02:52 PM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by lgmayka View Post
        No, it shows only that R1b did not come from the Great Hungarian Plain, which is only part of the Carpathian Basin.

        The lack of R1b in the ancient Hungarian samples is not nearly as shocking as the lack of R1a, which everyone agrees is (roughly) Eastern European.

        It is almost enough to make one suspect that R1b, like R1a, entered Western Europe through Corded Ware (which mostly avoided the Carpathian Basin).
        No R1b has been found in the Corded Ware to date. The R1b mystery continues. R1b could have a western European origin, after all that has been written.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          No R1b has been found in the Corded Ware to date. The R1b mystery continues. R1b could have a western European origin, after all that has been written.
          I know you know this already and I know I must sound like a broken record for repeating it. But, here I go again because it's important information that must be considered.

          There are a few dozen yDNA results from ancient remains in Western Europe - France, Spain, Germany and Italy - during the period from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago. Most of them are G2a of some sort and there is not one R1b among those few dozen results. The first R1b found in ancient western European remains is from Germany, dated at about 4,600 years ago.

          If R1b was in western Europe before 5,000 years ago, then it must have had a small presence and/or have hidden itself very well.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
            I know you know this already and I know I must sound like a broken record for repeating it. But, here I go again because it's important information that must be considered.

            There are a few dozen yDNA results from ancient remains in Western Europe - France, Spain, Germany and Italy - during the period from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago. Most of them are G2a of some sort and there is not one R1b among those few dozen results. The first R1b found in ancient western European remains is from Germany, dated at about 4,600 years ago.

            If R1b was in western Europe before 5,000 years ago, then it must have had a small presence and/or have hidden itself very well.
            I think that the bottlenecks that can be seen in the R1b Y-tree show that only a small group of R1b men survived until the Neolithic. They were a nomadic group that may have roamed between France and Siberia for 12,000 years during the LGM. Finding the remains of any of this group has proved to be extremely difficult.

            "A hunter-gatherer or forager[1] society is a nomadic society in which most or all food is obtained from wild plants and animals, in contrast to agricultural societies, which rely mainly on domesticated species. Anthropologists have remarked that the term foraging is a more appropriate description of the predominant food source for most non-agricultural groups: Gathering is a far more important source of food than is hunting for the majority of non-agricultural societies, according to Richard Borshay Lee.

            Foraging was the ancestral subsistence mode of Homo. As The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Hunter-Gatherers says: "Hunting and gathering was humanity's first and most successful adaptation, occupying at least 90 percent of human history. Until 12,000 years ago, all humans lived this way."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              I think that the bottlenecks that can be seen in the R1b Y-tree show that only a small group of R1b men survived until the Neolithic. They were a nomadic group that may have roamed between France and Siberia for 12,000 years during the LGM. Finding the remains of any of this group has proved to be extremely difficult.

              "A hunter-gatherer or forager[1] society is a nomadic society in which most or all food is obtained from wild plants and animals, in contrast to agricultural societies, which rely mainly on domesticated species. Anthropologists have remarked that the term foraging is a more appropriate description of the predominant food source for most non-agricultural groups: Gathering is a far more important source of food than is hunting for the majority of non-agricultural societies, according to Richard Borshay Lee.

              Foraging was the ancestral subsistence mode of Homo. As The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Hunter-Gatherers says: "Hunting and gathering was humanity's first and most successful adaptation, occupying at least 90 percent of human history. Until 12,000 years ago, all humans lived this way."
              This does not explain why G2a has been found at all the sites of ancient remains dated from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago in France, Spain, Germany and Italy but not one R1b has been found.

              Google "parsimony" or "Occam's razor" to find out why that makes your elaborate scenario to explain the absence of R1b in Europe during this period very unlikely. You might want to start with the Wikipedia articles for those terms.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                This does not explain why G2a has been found at all the sites of ancient remains dated from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago in France, Spain, Germany and Italy but not one R1b has been found.

                Google "parsimony" or "Occam's razor" to find out why that makes your elaborate scenario to explain the absence of R1b in Europe during this period very unlikely. You might want to start with the Wikipedia articles for those terms.
                The scientists would soon need to find ancient R1b in the regions that you say that R1b came from to help your theory.

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                • #9
                  Haplogroup G orinated in the Levant 30,000 ybp according to wikipedia. Tests on ancient remains show that the members of G haplogroup were able to move to western Europe thousands of years ago.So what happened to R? G is still found in western Europe today.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    Haplogroup G orinated in the Levant 30,000 ybp according to wikipedia. Tests on ancient remains show that the members of G haplogroup were able to move to western Europe thousands of years ago.So what happened to R? G is still found in western Europe today.
                    It has been pointed out to you that the latest research indicates that haplogroup P, the father of Q and R, arose somewhere in or near southeast Asia. Then we have R* (Mal'ta boy) found in ancient remains in Siberia (near Mongolia), dated to about 24,000 years ago.

                    Look at a map and compare the distances of the Levant (homeland of G) and eastern Siberia (homeland of R) to western Europe. Also, compare the ages of G (30,000 years) to R (24,000 years). G's homeland was closer to Europe and its age is several thousand years older than R. This means it had more time to travel a shorter distance to arrive in Europe. That certainly would explain why it would arrive in Europe before R1b did.

                    G, based on the evidence we have so far, was the dominant haplogroup in western Europe in the period from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago and no R1b has been found in that period in western Europe. This is why population geneticists believe that G was the dominant haplogroup of Neolithic farmers from the Levant who replaced the Mesolithic hunter gatherers in Europe. In turn, it's seeming more and more likely that haplogroup G, found at low levels in Europe today, was later replaced in the Bronze or Copper Age by R1b, again coming from outside Europe.

                    All this evidence points in that direction as the most likely. Until some R1b is found in Europe, especially western Europe, before 5,000 years ago, this will remain the best theory that fits the evidence. You can continue to hold onto a belief that's not supported by much, if any, evidence, but don't expect many people to accept your belief over what's emerging as a scientific consensus.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MMaddi View Post
                      It has been pointed out to you that the latest research indicates that haplogroup P, the father of Q and R, arose somewhere in or near southeast Asia. Then we have R* (Mal'ta boy) found in ancient remains in Siberia (near Mongolia), dated to about 24,000 years ago.

                      Look at a map and compare the distances of the Levant (homeland of G) and eastern Siberia (homeland of R) to western Europe. Also, compare the ages of G (30,000 years) to R (24,000 years). G's homeland was closer to Europe and its age is several thousand years older than R. This means it had more time to travel a shorter distance to arrive in Europe. That certainly would explain why it would arrive in Europe before R1b did.

                      G, based on the evidence we have so far, was the dominant haplogroup in western Europe in the period from 5,000 to 7,000 years ago and no R1b has been found in that period in western Europe. This is why population geneticists believe that G was the dominant haplogroup of Neolithic farmers from the Levant who replaced the Mesolithic hunter gatherers in Europe. In turn, it's seeming more and more likely that haplogroup G, found at low levels in Europe today, was later replaced in the Bronze or Copper Age by R1b, again coming from outside Europe.

                      All this evidence points in that direction as the most likely. Until some R1b is found in Europe, especially western Europe, before 5,000 years ago, this will remain the best theory that fits the evidence. You can continue to hold onto a belief that's not supported by much, if any, evidence, but don't expect many people to accept your belief over what's emerging as a scientific consensus.
                      It is a long way from south east Asia to Siberia. What was the barrier preventing P from moving west? I would like to see Mesolithic and Neolithic R1b found anywhere in the world. It is all about science and most likely is not scientific.

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                      • #12
                        It's only 6 genomes. It doesn't demonstrate anything except that the haplogroups found were there in 1 or 2 people. Sample size matters.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
                          It's only 6 genomes. It doesn't demonstrate anything except that the haplogroups found were there in 1 or 2 people. Sample size matters.
                          It demonstrates one thing and that is that R1b did not arrive in the west from Hungary.So it is back to the drawing board. There is a gap of 20,000 years between Kromsdorf and Siberia.
                          Last edited by 1798; 20th November 2014, 02:15 AM.

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                          • #14
                            6 genomes is not enough to demonstrate that. It's possible that R1b was there and just doesn't happen to be among those few genomes.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by PNGarrison View Post
                              6 genomes is not enough to demonstrate that. It's possible that R1b was there and just doesn't happen to be among those few genomes.
                              It is possible that ancient R1b will be found in western Europe also.

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