Ancient genomes in Hungary from different times, Neolithic to Iron Age

[1798]

Ukraine is woefully undersampled, but we do find some U106, DF27, U152, etc. The most interesting cases are those that have tested negative for major subclades--e.g.:

#N59802 : U106+ Z18- Z381- L217.1-
#153495 : DF27+ Z196-

Thank you Igmayka.

[N21163]

I burst out laughing when I read this!

According to 1798, R1b has been in western Europe for more than 10,000 years. Yet a few dozen ancient DNA results from France, Germany, Spain and Italy from the period of 5,000 to 7,000 years ago have yielded not one find of R1b - not one.

Yet he tells us that, because one site in Hungary with Neolithic to Iron Age remains did not find any R1b among a few remains, it finishes the theory that R1b entered Europe after the Neolithic from the east.

So, he believes (and is asking us to believe as well) that R1b was in western Europe for over 10,000 years without any finds of R1b even 5,000 years ago, but the alternate, more accepted theory that R1b entered Europe from the east after the Neolithic Age is doomed because one site in eastern Europe didn't have any R1b remains. The myopia (aka "tunnel vision") is unbelievable!

Precisely.

[1798]

I burst out laughing when I read this!

According to 1798, R1b has been in western Europe for more than 10,000 years. Yet a few dozen ancient DNA results from France, Germany, Spain and Italy from the period of 5,000 to 7,000 years ago have yielded not one find of R1b - not one.

Yet he tells us that, because one site in Hungary with Neolithic to Iron Age remains did not find any R1b among a few remains, it finishes the theory that R1b entered Europe after the Neolithic from the east.

So, he believes (and is asking us to believe as well) that R1b was in western Europe for over 10,000 years without any finds of R1b even 5,000 years ago, but the alternate, more accepted theory that R1b entered Europe from the east after the Neolithic Age is doomed because one site in eastern Europe didn't have any R1b remains. The myopia (aka "tunnel vision") is unbelievable!

Seeing as you are an R1b expert tell us where the M269 bottleneck occurred. A few years ago you were one of the M269 from Anatolia clan. Now you have changed your story to the Steppe origin. What will it be next year?

[1798]

Ukraine is woefully undersampled, but we do find some U106, DF27, U152, etc. The most interesting cases are those that have tested negative for major subclades--e.g.:

#N59802 : U106+ Z18- Z381- L217.1-
#153495 : DF27+ Z196-

N59802 is close to the WAMH and those closest to him at 67 markers are from western Europe. He is a long way from his ancestral home.

[Stevo]

I burst out laughing when I read this!

According to 1798, R1b has been in western Europe for more than 10,000 years. Yet a few dozen ancient DNA results from France, Germany, Spain and Italy from the period of 5,000 to 7,000 years ago have yielded not one find of R1b - not one.

Yet he tells us that, because one site in Hungary with Neolithic to Iron Age remains did not find any R1b among a few remains, it finishes the theory that R1b entered Europe after the Neolithic from the east.

So, he believes (and is asking us to believe as well) that R1b was in western Europe for over 10,000 years without any finds of R1b even 5,000 years ago, but the alternate, more accepted theory that R1b entered Europe from the east after the Neolithic Age is doomed because one site in eastern Europe didn't have any R1b remains. The myopia (aka "tunnel vision") is unbelievable!

Well, besides that, those Hungarian remains come mostly from the Neolithic Period, followed by a big time gap, and then the LATE Bronze Age, with one y-dna result from the late Bronze Age.

They skip the Copper Age and the Early and Middle Bronze Ages. Although there are a number of Bell Beaker and Yamnaya sites in Hungary, the paper that is supposed to be the topic of this thread does not include any ancient y-dna results from any of them. It's hardly an exhaustive sampling and was obviously not intended to be.

It's funny, as Mike points out above, how 1798 seems to think a report that found no R1b is somehow evidence that R1b was present in Europe before the Neolithic Period. Go figure.

From what I have heard of the recent American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) meeting in San Diego in October, Yamnaya is thought to be the source of most of the ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) in Europe, and there is quite a bit of ANE in places in Europe with very little R1a but a lot of R1b.

[Stevo]

Where are the U106 and P312 downstream SNP branches in the Steppe? Can you give me a list of them? Your theory is finished because of the lack of ancient R1b in Hungary. JMHO. The oldest branches of P312 were born in Iberia, France and Italy.The oldest branches of U106 were born in north western Europe

"The Steppe, belt of grassland that extends some 5,000 miles (8,000 kilometres) from Hungary in the west through Ukraine and Central Asia to Manchuria in the east.

Why should we expect a lot of L11+ downstream branches in the steppe now? None of us said R1b came out of the steppe last Tuesday.

Have you even the foggiest notion of the history of that region and how much population churning has taken place there over the millennia?

Your claim about the oldest branches of P312 and U106 is just plain false.

[1798]

Well, besides that, those Hungarian remains come mostly from the Neolithic Period, followed by a big time gap, and then the LATE Bronze Age, with one y-dna result from the late Bronze Age.

They skip the Copper Age and the Early and Middle Bronze Ages. Although there are a number of Bell Beaker and Yamnaya sites in Hungary, the paper that is supposed to be the topic of this thread does not include any ancient y-dna results from any of them. It's hardly an exhaustive sampling and was obviously not intended to be.

It's funny, as Mike points out above, how 1798 seems to think a report that found no R1b is somehow evidence that R1b was present in Europe before the Neolithic Period. Go figure.

From what I have heard of the recent American Society of Human Genetics (ASHG) meeting in San Diego in October, Yamnaya is thought to be the source of most of the ANE (Ancient North Eurasian) in Europe, and there is quite a bit of ANE in places in Europe with very little R1a but a lot of R1b.

It really sounds funny that the source of ANE in western Europe is recent and came from the Yamnaya Culture.It should be Ancient Northern European dna. When they test the Red Lady they will change.

[1798]

Why should we expect a lot of L11+ downstream branches in the steppe now? None of us said R1b came out of the steppe last Tuesday.

Have you even the foggiest notion of the history of that region and how much population churning has taken place there over the millennia?

Your claim about the oldest branches of P312 and U106 is just plain false.

Why would the L11 branches in the Steppe die out? They haven't died out in western Europe.

[lgmayka]

N59802 is close to the WAMH and those closest to him at 67 markers are from western Europe. He is a long way from his ancestral home.

False. The Y-DNA Matches page of N59802 lists:

- At 111 markers, no one

- At 67 markers, one distance-3 match of southern Polish patrilineage

- At 37 markers, that same Polish match, again distance 3

- At 25 markers, that same Polish match is at distance 1. At distance 2 is a British Isles family confirmed to be L21+ (i.e., a false match).

Thus, one could reasonably suspect a Polish origin, but not a Western European one.

Besides, you are apparently paying too much attention to Y-STRs, which can be extremely misleading in the highly populous R-M269 haplogroup. For example, two men can differ by only distance 6 at 67 markers, yet belong to widely disparate clades whose MRCA lived many thousands of years ago. At 37 markers, even a distance of 2 can be meaningless!

[1798]

False. The Y-DNA Matches page of N59802 lists:

- At 111 markers, no one

- At 67 markers, one distance-3 match of southern Polish patrilineage

- At 37 markers, that same Polish match, again distance 3

- At 25 markers, that same Polish match is at distance 1. At distance 2 is a British Isles family confirmed to be L21+ (i.e., a false match).

Thus, one could reasonably suspect a Polish origin, but not a Western European one.

Besides, you are apparently paying too much attention to Y-STRs, which can be extremely misleading in the highly populous R-M269 haplogroup. For example, two men can differ by only distance 6 at 67 markers, yet belong to widely disparate clades whose MRCA lived many thousands of years ago. At 37 markers, even a distance of 2 can be meaningless!

I understand but I checked him out at ysearch. His closest matches in haplogroup (U106) and YSTRs are from western Europe not the Ukraine.He is also 11/12 of the WAMH.

[MMaddi]

Seeing as you are an R1b expert tell us where the M269 bottleneck occurred. A few years ago you were one of the M269 from Anatolia clan. Now you have changed your story to the Steppe origin. What will it be next year?

Please provide a link where I state that M269 was born in Anatolia or the steppes. I don't recall ever posting such a definitive statement.

The truth is I don't know exactly where M269 was born. I believe that the area around Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran are possibilities, but I wouldn't say that's the place without any doubt.

On the other hand, with a total lack of evidence, you are willing to state (and do at the drop of a hat) that M269 was born in Europe and probably western Europe. As I posted, your tunnel vision is just unbelievable.

[1798]

Please provide a link where I state that M269 was born in Anatolia or the steppes. I don't recall ever posting such a definitive statement.

The truth is I don't know exactly where M269 was born. I believe that the area around Anatolia, the Caucasus and Iran are possibilities, but I wouldn't say that's the place without any doubt.

On the other hand, with a total lack of evidence, you are willing to state (and do at the drop of a hat) that M269 was born in Europe and probably western Europe. As I posted, your tunnel vision is just unbelievable.

No M269 from ancient dna has been found in any of these regions. The evidence is the 300 million M269 males living in western Europe today.

[Stevo]

Why would the L11 branches in the Steppe die out? They haven't died out in western Europe.

Who said they died out? You missed the point of my post, but you don't pay attention anyway.

For others who do, we don't expect a lot of downstream L11+ branches in places where their ancestors lived before those L11+ downstream branches were born, or in places where there has been a lot of subsequent population turnover.

[Stevo]

No M269 from ancient dna has been found in any of these regions . . .

So it is your argument that where ancient M269 has not been found it did not exist?

Well, that eliminates Western Europe!

[1798]

Who said they died out? You missed the point of my post, but you don't pay attention anyway.

For others who do, we don't expect a lot of downstream L11+ branches in places where their ancestors lived before those L11+ downstream branches were born, or in places where there has been a lot of subsequent population turnover.

It doesn't matter as the new paper out states that R1b-M269 came from Armenia to Europe. I posted it today.

http://www.investigativegenetics.com/content/5/1/15