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Ancient genomes in Hungary from different times, Neolithic to Iron Age

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  • #46
    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    "While we are still investigating Ancient DNA, there is currently no evidence for R1b being present in Europe 10,000 years ago."

    Who is the we?
    The use of "we" was referring collectively to investigators and research scientists of Ancient DNA.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Are you a scientist?
    Yes. Not that it matters to you.

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    Why are you making this up. You don't need to.
    What, in your opinion, is Stevo making up?

    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
    It seems like you are trying to make it fit with your ideas.
    Not at all.
    Last edited by N21163; 29th November 2014, 02:03 AM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by N21163 View Post
      The use of "we" was referring collectively to investigators and research scientists of Ancient DNA.
      Yes. Not that it matters to you.
      It does matter to me. What is your opinion then on the origin of R1b? What would have caused the M269 bottleneck. There have been numerous posts in the past about M269 originating in Turkey during the Neolithic which was earlier than in Ireland and Britain. The bottleneck shows that it is not correct.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by 1798 View Post
        It does matter to me. What is your opinion then on the origin of R1b? What would have caused the M269 bottleneck. There have been numerous posts in the past about M269 originating in Turkey during the Neolithic which was earlier than in Ireland and Britain. The bottleneck shows that it is not correct.
        You have ignored current evidence and data posted throughout these forums by myself and other members.

        You make assumptions and concoct theories that are not back up by current research.

        There have been numerous instances where we have exchanged posts in these forums.

        Why would anything I say matter now? It didn't matter before.

        Do us all the courtesy of answering these questions:

        Why do you persist in dismissing conclusions other members have made based on current research and Ancient DNA evidence?

        For that matter, why do you continue to ignore current research?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          Why are you making this up. You don't need to.It seems like you are trying to make it fit with your ideas.
          Making what up?

          What I wrote in my last post was true. Here it is again, since apparently you did not understand it.

          Originally posted by Stevo
          Those recent Hungarian finds do have a serious gap in them, jumping as they do from the Neolithic to the late Bronze Age and skipping the intervening periods.

          So the information we get from these ancient y-dna finds is that R1b and R1a were probably not yet present in Hungary in the Neolithic, and that the single set of male remains from the Kyjatice Culture, an Urnfield offshoot, dated to 1270-1110 BC (late Bronze Age), was J2a1.

          Concerning R1b, we know that R1b (U106-) was recovered from the Bell Beaker site near Kromsdorf, Germany, circa 2600-2500 BC. Kromsdorf is near Weimar in east central Germany. No older R1b has yet been found in Europe.
          Your motive in hijacking nearly every thread is to try to make it appear that R1b was in Western Europe soon after the LGM. You don't really care about that, but what you want to do is make it look as though U106 has been somewhere in the vicinity of Ireland since the Mesolithic so as to make it seem likely that your own y-dna line could have arrived in Ireland in the distant prehistoric past, thus precluding the possibility that it is Germanic. You especially wish to avoid the possibility that your y-dna line could be English.

          None of the rest of us care about this personal genealogical and nationalistic mania. We are interested in the much larger question of where R1b came from and when and are willing to follow where the actual evidence leads.

          You have been doing this for years and years now on more than one dna discussion venue. I wish you would stop.
          Last edited by Stevo; 29th November 2014, 07:45 AM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Stevo View Post
            Making what up?

            What I wrote in my last post was true. Here it is again, since apparently you did not understand it.



            Your motive in hijacking nearly every thread is to try to make it appear that R1b was in Western Europe soon after the LGM. You don't really care about that, but what you want to do is make it look as though U106 has been somewhere in the vicinity of Ireland since the Mesolithic so as to make it seem likely that your own y-dna line could have arrived in Ireland in the distant prehistoric past, thus precluding the possibility that it is Germanic. You especially wish to avoid the possibility that your y-dna line could be English.

            None of the rest of us care about this personal genealogical and nationalistic mania. We are interested in the much larger question of where R1b came from and when and are willing to follow where the actual evidence leads.

            You have been doing this for years and years now on more than one dna discussion venue. I wish you would stop.
            Sadly to say is that you don't want R1b to be in western Europe before 4000 years ago to avoid the connection to Spain.
            You should read what the scientists involved with the POBI project wrote. There is very little autosomal dna variation between the British and Spanish.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              Sadly to say is that you don't want R1b to be in western Europe before 4000 years ago to avoid the connection to Spain.
              You should read what the scientists involved with the POBI project wrote. There is very little autosomal dna variation between the British and Spanish.
              The problem with that accusation, aside from the bad grammar, is that it is completely baseless. I have no problem with Spain nor do I wish to avoid any connection to it.

              Please do not make accusations that have no basis in fact.

              Since my ancestry is predominantly Western European, I most certainly do have many connections to Spain. Many of our distant ancestors spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge.

              There is just no evidence whatsoever that y-dna haplogroup R1b was there at that time.

              You are also mistaken about the supposed autosomal resemblance between the British and the Spanish. The British cluster with other northern Europeans. The Spanish cluster with other SW Europeans.
              Last edited by Stevo; 29th November 2014, 08:06 AM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                The problem with that accusation, aside from the bad grammar, is that it is completely baseless. I have no problem with Spain nor do I wish to avoid any connection to it.

                Please do not make accusations that have no basis in fact.

                Since my ancestry is predominantly Western European, I most certainly do have many connections to Spain. Many of our distant ancestors spent the LGM in the Franco-Cantabrian Ice Age Refuge.

                There is just no evidence whatsoever that y-dna haplogroup R1b was there at that time.

                You are also mistaken about the supposed autosomal resemblance between the British and the Spanish. The British cluster with other northern Europeans. The Spanish cluster with other SW Europeans.
                R1b was well established in western Europe because it was found in Germany 4,800 ybp. It is not as if two stragglers made it to there from the Steppe carrying Bell Beakers.
                The M269 bottleneck did not occur in the Fertile Crescent so it is of the map as a place of origin.

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                • #53
                  http://www.ashg.org/2014meeting/abst...f140122098.htm


                  "Reflecting more recent genetic ancestry, results from these methods suggest significant differences between the Iron Age and the Anglo-Saxon period samples when compared to other European samples. We find in particular that while the Anglo-Saxon samples resemble more closely the modern British population than the earlier samples, the Iron Age samples share more low frequency variation than the later ones with present day samples from southern Europe, in particular Spain (1000GP IBS). In addition the Anglo-Saxon period samples appear to share a stronger older component with Finnish (1000GP FIN) individuals. Our findings help characterize the ancestral European populations involved in major European migration movements into Britain in the last 2,000 years and thus provide more insights into the genetic history of people in northern Europe."

                  http://www.fc.id.au/2014_10_01_archive.html

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    R1b was well established in western Europe because it was found in Germany 4,800 ybp. It is not as if two stragglers made it to there from the Steppe carrying Bell Beakers.
                    The estimated date of the two male Beaker Folk near Kromsdorf, Germany, is 2600-2500 BC, so closer to 4500-4600 years ago, not 4800. And Kromsdorf is near Weimar in east central Germany. It was in old East Germany (the GDR), and not in Western Europe. It would be more accurate to say that Kromsdorf is in Central Europe.

                    Thus far those two "stragglers" carried the oldest R1b found anywhere in Europe. And the Beaker Culture has a number of traits that originated on the steppe.

                    Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                    The M269 bottleneck did not occur in the Fertile Crescent so it is of the map as a place of origin.
                    Who said R1b originated in the Fertile Crescent? Not I.

                    It likely originated somewhere farther east in Asia. We know that Mal'ta Boy belonged to a basal y haplogroup R, and his remains were recovered near Lake Baikal in Siberia. Probably the split between R1a, R1b, and R2 occurred somewhere in Central Asia, but we do not know for sure.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                      http://www.ashg.org/2014meeting/abst...f140122098.htm


                      "Reflecting more recent genetic ancestry, results from these methods suggest significant differences between the Iron Age and the Anglo-Saxon period samples when compared to other European samples. We find in particular that while the Anglo-Saxon samples resemble more closely the modern British population than the earlier samples, the Iron Age samples share more low frequency variation than the later ones with present day samples from southern Europe, in particular Spain (1000GP IBS). In addition the Anglo-Saxon period samples appear to share a stronger older component with Finnish (1000GP FIN) individuals. Our findings help characterize the ancestral European populations involved in major European migration movements into Britain in the last 2,000 years and thus provide more insights into the genetic history of people in northern Europe."

                      http://www.fc.id.au/2014_10_01_archive.html
                      Please try to understand what you read. That report does NOT say the British are a lot like the Spanish when it comes to autosomal dna, which is what you claimed.

                      It says the Iron Age remains from Hinxton in Cambridgeshire have a little more in common with SW Europeans than the Anglo-Saxon Period remains do. All the Hinxton remains cluster with Northern Europeans though and not with SW Europeans.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                        Please try to understand what you read. That report does NOT say the British are a lot like the Spanish when it comes to autosomal dna, which is what you claimed.

                        It says the Iron Age remains from Hinxton in Cambridgeshire have a little more in common with SW Europeans than the Anglo-Saxon Period remains do. All the Hinxton remains cluster with Northern Europeans though and not with SW Europeans.
                        Northern Europeans are descended from all the people who have lived in Northern Europe from the LGM.
                        Where M343 and M269 were born is important to all of us who are descendants. There is no evidence to suggest that they were born in the same region.
                        If R1b expanded during the Neolithic that was 6000 years ago in western Europe and 6000-12000 years ago in the Fertile Crescent. Most of the branches that we see today are downstream of P311. So it must be around the birth or after it of P311 that is linked to the Neolithic.
                        If P311 and descendants didn't expand until the Bronze-Age that means that R1b lived as hunter-gatherers for 2000 years after all of Europe had taken up farming. Do you not understand that?

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                        • #57
                          Sigh.

                          The Neolithic Period began in SE Europe about 6500 BC. That is about 8500 years ago. The fact that R1b probably did not enter Europe west of the Dnieper until the Copper Age does not mean most R1b men were still living as Mesolithic hunter-gatherers up until the moment they crossed the river. Chances are they were steppe pastoralists who already practiced some agriculture and, of course, herded animals.

                          Had R1b been in Western Europe since before the Neolithic, chances are some of it would have been recovered from Neolithic or older sites by now, but it has not.

                          The fact that R1b in Europe is overwhelming L11+, and actually overwhelmingly P312+ and U106+, demonstrates that it is not at its most diverse there. The R1b SNP trail leads back to the shores of the Caspian Sea in fact.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Stevo View Post
                            Sigh.

                            The Neolithic Period began in SE Europe about 6500 BC. That is about 8500 years ago. The fact that R1b probably did not enter Europe west of the Dnieper until the Copper Age does not mean most R1b men were still living as Mesolithic hunter-gatherers up until the moment they crossed the river. Chances are they were steppe pastoralists who already practiced some agriculture and, of course, herded animals.

                            Had R1b been in Western Europe since before the Neolithic, chances are some of it would have been recovered from Neolithic or older sites by now, but it has not.
                            Where are the U106 and P312 downstream SNP branches in the Steppe? Can you give me a list of them? Your theory is finished because of the lack of ancient R1b in Hungary. JMHO. The oldest branches of P312 were born in Iberia, France and Italy.The oldest branches of U106 were born in north western Europe

                            "The Steppe, belt of grassland that extends some 5,000 miles (8,000 kilometres) from Hungary in the west through Ukraine and Central Asia to Manchuria in the east.
                            Last edited by 1798; 29th November 2014, 04:27 PM.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              Where are the U106 and P312 downstream SNP branches in the Steppe?
                              Ukraine is woefully undersampled, but we do find some U106, DF27, U152, etc. The most interesting cases are those that have tested negative for major subclades--e.g.:

                              #N59802 : U106+ Z18- Z381- L217.1-
                              #153495 : DF27+ Z196-

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                                Your theory is finished because of the lack of ancient R1b in Hungary. JMHO.
                                I burst out laughing when I read this!

                                According to 1798, R1b has been in western Europe for more than 10,000 years. Yet a few dozen ancient DNA results from France, Germany, Spain and Italy from the period of 5,000 to 7,000 years ago have yielded not one find of R1b - not one.

                                Yet he tells us that, because one site in Hungary with Neolithic to Iron Age remains did not find any R1b among a few remains, it finishes the theory that R1b entered Europe after the Neolithic from the east.

                                So, he believes (and is asking us to believe as well) that R1b was in western Europe for over 10,000 years without any finds of R1b even 5,000 years ago, but the alternate, more accepted theory that R1b entered Europe from the east after the Neolithic Age is doomed because one site in eastern Europe didn't have any R1b remains. The myopia (aka "tunnel vision") is unbelievable!
                                Last edited by MMaddi; 29th November 2014, 09:07 PM.

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