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A substantial prehistoric European ancestry amongst Ashkenazi maternal lineages

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  • #16
    Originally posted by rbmirvin View Post
    By that standard, I've somewhat more stake in the matter That doesn't change the fact that valid conversions are known to have been carried out - outside the Levant - in the early centuries of the common era, so at least some percentage of "other" DNA is to be expected among both Sephardim and Ashkenazim. Likewise, given Europe's later history of anti-Semitism in various times and places, it should be expected that some families and communities chose conversion over the other consequences offered. At other times, assimilation would be an ongoing issue for the various Jewish communities.

    From what little I've read, Haplogroup K is fairly infrequent in Europe and subglade origins tend to be very hard to pin down - which seems a better match to a scenario of a dispersed Levantine population introgressing into the overall European population over time than the reversed scenario depicted. It might upset some folks to think about how such things may have happened in their own family history, but what's done is done.
    I totally understand that people simply want to KNOW as pertains to these issues, and particularly when it relates to their own direct line maternal and paternal ancestry - even though those lines are really not any more genetically significant than any of the other ancestral components and contributions.

    When it comes to their own maternal and paternal line people want some sort of denouement in which the entire story is conclusively revealed and explained, and in a lot of cases I think science often 'jumps the gun' on these topics especially when utilizing media coverage which rewards sexy, attention-grabbing or titillating headlines, and this coverage and funding is so important to those doing the work or writing the papers.

    In the case of the Ashkenazi MT K conundrum, we are lucky to have some significant ancient MT results that not only place that Hg in the Levant historically, but we can positively place MT 'K' in the Levant dating to 8k B.C.E. We cannot say this is a proto-Semitic cultural population at that point in time, or infer any other cultural aspects to the population, only note that the Hg is in-situ in the exact region we would expect to be the Ashkenazic populations home region of cultural origin.

    I am only thinking out loud and absolutely do not place any certitude to the suggestion, but one possible reason (among all too many) for the reason that we find a different Mt Hg mosaic among Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Sephardic populations could be that these groups were not only affected by some introgression during their dispersal,
    but could differ in modern times due to incorporating Canaanite, Moabite, Ammonite etc.. maternal regional populations to lesser/greater scale in their respective home regions of Israel/Judea, in a very early period.

    In any event, to me, this would definitely be a 'no-call' at this point as uneventful as that is for those seeking that 'denouement', simply because we can in fact clearly place Mt K as a significant component in at least some Levantine early population(s), and we cannot rule out a later introgression post-dispersal in Europe, Central/West Asia, etc... A refinement of mutations in ancient Levantine samples vs. modern regional samples might offer a better idea of when or where K fits in, but I dont think any higher resolution conclusion is supported at this point.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by josh w. View Post
      I have not come to a conclusion on this issue. While some conversion took place, conversion is not required, i.e. conversion to Christianity. Maybe European women converted to Judaism.

      It is not clear when the Diaspora began. Not all of it was involuntary. Jews began voluntary migration to Greece around the time of Alexander.
      Sorry, I now understand the point about conversion to Christianity. Still not sure if this explains the nesting pattern. The usual pattern was for Jewish males to marry Gentile women and remain Jewish. Jews were tolerated in ancient Greece and Rome until the rise of Christianity when there was more pressure to convert.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by josh w. View Post
        Sorry, I now understand the point about conversion to Christianity. Still not sure if this explains the nesting pattern. The usual pattern was for Jewish males to marry Gentile women and remain Jewish. Jews were tolerated in ancient Greece and Rome until the rise of Christianity when there was more pressure to convert.
        There was a significant constraint on the effects of Jewish introgression. Until the 1300s the Jewish population in Europe was rather small.

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        • #19
          Regarding the controversies over the Ashkenazic mtDNA haplogroups K1a1b1a and K2a2a:

          Samuel Andrews, the researcher who runs the website mtdnawiki.com and the blog mtdnaatlas.blogspot.com, proposes on the pages below that K1a1b1 originated about 10,000 years ago and came into Europe during the mass-migration of Anatolian farmers, and that its branch k1a1b1a originated about 7,000 years ago in Hungary.

          He further proposes that K2a began life about 7,000-8,000 years ago in Germany.

          http://mtdnawiki.com/k/
          http://mtdnawiki.com/2018/01/21/what-is-european-mtdna/

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          • #20
            Both links gave me "This site can't be reached", its server IP address could not be found.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by loobster View Post
              Both links gave me "This site can't be reached", its server IP address could not be found.
              Same here. If correct, the results would be consistent with Richards view.

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              • #22
                Some news has come in very recently that the mtDNA haplogroups J1c7a and H11a2a2 that are occasionally found among Ashkenazic Jews, but not in significant frequencies, have Balto-Slavic origins.

                Samuel Andrews researched the distribution of H11a2a2. It peaks in frequency in Poland.

                As for J1c7a, it's the haplogroup of a person buried in the Kowalewko cemetery in Poland during the Iron Age, according to the data in this study:
                "A mosaic genetic structure of the human population living in the South Baltic region during the Iron Age"
                by Ireneusz Stolarek, et al.
                in Scientific Reports 8 (February 6, 2018): article number 2455
                https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-20705-6

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by khazaria View Post
                  Some news has come in very recently that the mtDNA haplogroups J1c7a and H11a2a2 that are occasionally found among Ashkenazic Jews, but not in significant frequencies, have Balto-Slavic origins.

                  Samuel Andrews researched the distribution of H11a2a2. It peaks in frequency in Poland.

                  As for J1c7a, it's the haplogroup of a person buried in the Kowalewko cemetery in Poland during the Iron Age, according to the data in this study:
                  "A mosaic genetic structure of the human population living in the South Baltic region during the Iron Age"
                  by Ireneusz Stolarek, et al.
                  in Scientific Reports 8 (February 6, 2018): article number 2455
                  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-20705-6
                  Thanks. I am J1c14 which is downstream of J1c7. It is found in both Scandinavia and the southern Baltics. I had wondered about how it reached the Baltics. It looks like it was from central Europe related to Neolithic migration.

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