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  • #16
    Just in case I unintentionally confused anyone, the three siblings are full siblings to each other, and the first cousin is their first cousin. They are my predicted 4th - 5th cousins.


    To answer JPHutchins' question...
    Of my 589 Relative Finder matches, 169 people are sharing genomes with me. 23 of those are not a match but are relatives of or are connected to (manage account of) my matches, except for the Eurogenes David W (he and I are not related but he agreed to share with me. He's Polish and I'm part Slovakian so I thought it was worth a try to ask him.).

    169 (sharing genomes)
    -23 (not a match)
    ___
    146 DNA matches sharing genomes with me.


    There is a glitch where 2 of those are displayed as sharing genomes but they don't appear in my Ancestry Labs Family Inheritance Finder and Ancestry Painting. I emailed help @ 23andme about that and have "tickets" for the problem. So, at the moment, I can see where I match with only 144 people that I have DNA matches with. Some of those are under 7cM because I found them first in Ancestry Finder and invited them to share, officially, and when they share they then appear in my Relative Finder list (4th to distant cousins).



    Some of my RF agreed to accept contact but not share genomes.


    Most people who say they are of Colonial American get about 500 to 600 matches.
    Ashkenazi's get over a thousand matches.
    There are people who have very few matches...I think I saw one woman post that her husband (he is Ethiopian) has only 5 matches.

    There are people on there that don't understand what genetic relatives are. I've had a few matches who told me we can't be related because ALL of THEIR ancestors were from Rhode Island, Massachussetts, Canada, you name it.
    And several women think this dna stuff only matches from the mother's side. Autosomal is from both parents. MtDNA is from the maternal direct line.
    Last edited by ~Elizabeth~; 7 October 2011, 09:41 PM.

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    • #17
      Elizabeth, I think you are very correct. People don't always grasp basic aspects of DNA testing. That's why we get answers like "we can't possibly be related." I think a very simply worded, down-to-earth info page should be written on: (1) the different kinds of DNA; (2) what recombination is; (3) what specific test is best for each purchaser. I haven't seen that info page as of yet. There should also be a knowledgeable moderator checking on these threads.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Geneadict View Post
        @jphutchins: re: "then it would certainly be worth testing there".

        Even with the communication issues, still worth testing for anyone actually trying to figure out an unidentified parent or grandparent due to adoption or other reasons. Sounds like you haven't which is why you didn't respond to my earlier inquiry.

        Bottom line is that for the 10x more matches, you should eventually be able to get in contact with 40-50% of those, so still 4x to 5x more useful than FF. Granted some of those are also adopted or have info documented back far enough to figure out connection, just like FF.

        For those who think you "know" all your ancestors and have nothing "hidden" to sort out, then perhaps maybe just better to stay within your comfort zone with FTDNA.
        I know I do not have knowledge of all of my ancestors, even on my bio-mothers side. However, two of my half sisters have spent a lot of time compiling a family tree on Ancestry.com. They had to and a lot more relatives when they located me in 2009.

        Okay you have me convinced that there might be more matches on 23andMe. Who knows one might come back with a "Predicted Relationship" of Father or Half Sibling. So I purchased the spit cup last night. I will give it a try. I just hope that if some breakthrough happens, the other party will respond.

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        • #19
          @ JPHutchins
          I wish you many responsive, caring, dna-smart relatives who have a long and extensive paper trail to help fit your ancestry puzzle pieces with theirs. Best of luck to you.

          And I wish the same for everyone who is searching for theirs.



          @mixedkid
          Yes, people need to grasp that just because all of their ancestors were from only one place, that doesn't rule out that that person is related to someone far away thru an ancestor's sibling or cousin. While I don't have any known ancestry from Massachusetts (except for an iffy ancestor, the last male of his line, who left Salem in the late 1600s), I have ancestors who immigrated from the United Kingdom in the late 1800s and sailed to Boston. I don't know how long they were there (days, weeks, months?), all I know is they moved to New Hampshire. My Great Great Great Grandparents came over to the USA with about a dozen kids. My Great Great Grandfather lived in New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Indiana, while two of his brothers moved to Massachusetts in the late 1800s (maybe my Massachusetts matches are unknowingly descended from them), and a sister moved to Ohio. I don't know where all the others went.
          Last edited by ~Elizabeth~; 8 October 2011, 04:41 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Geneadict View Post
            ... the total of the databases represented is a very small fraction.
            I was thinking about adding 80,000 dummy entries in my database that don't respond to share requests. Would that help to make the numbers closer? LOL

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            • #21
              ^Excellent point JOlson (creator of Gedmatch)

              I think that most of my unresponsive 23andme matches are people who never intended to use the Relative Finder feature and that in truth it was their physicians that ordered the test on their behalf or persuaded them to order it for the doctor to access the results, not the actual dna person.

              Every person in Gedmatch is seriously interested in their genealogy and dna results and definitely respond favorably to matches.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Geneadict View Post
                @jphutchins: re: "then it would certainly be worth testing there".

                Even with the communication issues, still worth testing for anyone actually trying to figure out an unidentified parent or grandparent due to adoption or other reasons. Sounds like you haven't which is why you didn't respond to my earlier inquiry.

                Bottom line is that for the 10x more matches, you should eventually be able to get in contact with 40-50% of those, so still 4x to 5x more useful than FF. Granted some of those are also adopted or have info documented back far enough to figure out connection, just like FF.

                For those who think you "know" all your ancestors and have nothing "hidden" to sort out, then perhaps maybe just better to stay within your comfort zone with FTDNA.

                I've personally found a previously unknown 2nd cousin to my mother and an unknown 3rd cousin to my father using 23andMe. Can't say the same about FF. Actual success rate to tracking down more distant relations not much better for one or the other and pretty much up to luck of the draw with regard to whom you match in the database. Again bottom line is larger database means more likely to find more recent relatives. Obviously no guarantee and results may vary.

                Have also seen many more "previously unknown half sibling" type stories over on 23andme. So if you can deal with the short comings and the less than desireable 5 per day relative finder (RF) request requirements, still well worth it for those actually looking for possible answers.
                Testing with both companies is the best option, especially for adoptees if they can swing it, but the $9.00 monthly subscription fee at 23and Me does not make it the best deal financially over time.

                My experience is not the same as yours. I have 408 RF matches with 23andMe, and 40 matches with FTDNA FF. However, my closest match (a predicted 3rd cousin) is at FTDNA FF. All my matches so far at 23 are 4th or 5th-distant. So for me, despite less matches at FTDNA, testing here has yielded my closest match to date, and they are trying to help me find our common connection. Response rates based on my experience, are better at FTDNA. I use both sites, but more of my time is spent here.

                Judy

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                • #23
                  non contacts and no ged-coms

                  I understand. But, it is a little aggravating. When, a Family Finder match does not leave a ged-com or an e-mail address. I go over the same matches several times. Otherwise,I have to make a list of uncontactable matches.
                  I'm guilty of putting a ged-com up late. But, it is still, incomplete. some of the free programs will not hold, all inforamtion. Besides, not having equal distribution, every generation. Of course, some matches can cause a great deal of work, to find. Family Finder is still, proving genetic matches, for myself.
                  Thanks for letting me, air my grief. That is the way it goes.

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                  • #24
                    @JPHutchins: Hope you get some good matches at 23andMe.

                    For the record, wasn't trying to advocate one vs the other, that's a lengthy debate and can easily vary from one person to another. Just making a point that it's worth looking at both if you are in a position to do so.

                    Would note that some improvements 23andMe has made with their "public" matches, still faster growing larger database, and pricing further lowered earlier this year have been improvements on their side of the fence from a year ago and as such have made me a somewhat "captured" customer having now purchased a total of 40 kits from them in the past 2 years (and getting a handful or so more to test with them based on my recommendation) compared to the 4 FF tests that I've purchased from FTDNA (have also purchased several Y STR products from FTDNA in that time frame as well).

                    Meanwhile, FTDNA's handling of the Affy-Illumina change and things like the recent QC issue, Facebook only sales, etc. are not helping them gain praise or grow their autosomal database enough to really be competitive with 23andMe and warrant inclusion with the other database sizes they make a point of bragging about on their website and include in their advertising (but to date do not show for FF). They are correct, size of database does matter. Their being on Illumina is most likely a plus and something they can capitalize on if they were to lower their price and have an even lower priced conversion from 23andMe option to offer. Until they do one or both of these, I will not be buying any more FF tests. For anyone in the hobby and hoping to gain as much from autosomal DNA testing as possible, it's in out best interest for FF to grow as well.

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                    • #25
                      @Elizabeth - I can appreciate the support that users of Gedmatch show for this 3rd party analysis tool. As I said, I'm sure many of it's users have garnered some useful info. However, given the nature of autosomal DNA, it really does come down to a numbers game with regard to finding more recent relatives as vast majority of autosomal DNA shares (i.e. one or two small segment shares for anyone not ashkenazi) are too distant to really help someone adopted within the past generation or two figure out their puzzle and additional matches found at lower thresholds aren't really going to help either. Someone could still luck into a solution of their puzzle, especially when combined with other research techniques, but the odds are low. As such size of database does matter.

                      So compared to the approx 110,000+ 23andMe database and approx 10,000+ FF database, how many individuals can you compare with at Gedmatch? A couple hundred, maybe a thousand?

                      For anyone in position to test with both 23andMe and FF, testing with just one and using Gedmatch is not really a comparable alternative.

                      If 23andMe or FTDNA were to "sponsor" a 3rd party database like FTDNA did with ysearch and mitosearch, perhaps the 3rd party could grow large enough to warrant inclusion in the discussion. Of course even with those, I still go to ancestry.com and SMGF to look for other Y STR matchs. Unfortunately with the more sensitive nature of autosomal DNA, not sure you'll be able to grow any 3rd party database in a similar fashion and you obviously won't have any kind of manual entry comparison option like you have with Y-STR or mtDNA.

                      So when you get into any argument or debate on the subject of degree of genealogical interest, or ease of access to matches and detail data, or amount of traditional research and detail of pedigree supporting your matches, you're still dealing with shades of gray, there are no absolutes. You can make all the general statements that you like and get frustrated or annoyed with various shortcomings all you want, but unless you luck into the right matches, any perceived advantage in these areas may be of no real benefit. I'll personally take my chances with the larger database and lower price if I have to make a choice.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by JOlson View Post
                        I was thinking about adding 80,000 dummy entries in my database that don't respond to share requests. Would that help to make the numbers closer? LOL
                        Yes, even I can laugh with you on this and understand "RF Burnout", but a real match is still a real match and some do come around and respond even as long as a year after the fact. And if we want to use realistic numbers, I'm guessing you'd only have to add a fraction of the 80,000 to get a comparable response rate and still represent only a fraction of the 23andMe database count. Unless you're database is allot larger than I'm thinking it is, my point is still valid. You would probably need approx 30,000-40,000 different people in your database (and I'm talking about representing active participants in your database, not the names listing in their FF match or AF download) to yield comparable results and I'm guessing you have only a small fraction of that.

                        No disrespect or criticism of your tools, just trying to paint a realistic picture.

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                        • #27
                          @jphutchins I currently have 609 matches on 23andMe. Because I was diligent and followed every lead and sent out every invite till all were invited, I now have about 200 RF shares with an additional 150 AF shares. I have their real names, mtDNA and YDNA groups, 2-4 surnames etc. etc.

                          Next month, I am going to send a few 'updated' invitations that meet the changed system information and that de emphasis the genetic sharing.

                          Here I have somewhere between 41 and 45 FF matches (depending on what they tweaked when) and 12-15 of those have never replied. Even having a name isn't too helpful when the name is Jones, Smith, Green, Wright, or Brown. In addition, The women's names are meaningless usually. LOL So realistically, I have 4-6 times as much info at 23andMe as I do here. Ultimately, the percentage of responses doesn't matter. As an adoptee, I want as many responders as possible and as much data as possible.

                          My top matches at both companies haven't been willing to share with me. In fact, my top match from here, who matches both me and my close Australian cousin not only has ignored my email but when I found him on facebook and asked to friend him, he blocked me. He has also not responded to my Australian cousin.

                          Just my .03 cents..

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Kasandra View Post
                            My top matches at both companies haven't been willing to share with me. In fact, my top match from here, who matches both me and my close Australian cousin not only has ignored my email but when I found him on facebook and asked to friend him, he blocked me. He has also not responded to my Australian cousin.
                            What a jerk! Maybe you can interpret his reaction that he does know something about an adoption from his family--it's just not discussed. But that still doesn't excuse his behavior.

                            I'm not adopted, but my closest match here won't respond to me either. I've figured out exactly who she is (her e-mail comes up in a Google search), and constructed several generations of her family tree from records alone. I guess that sounds sort of stalker-ish, but it should be rather easy to figure out how an estimated 3rd cousin is related. Maybe she found out an uncomfortable truth from the test that she might be adopted.

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                            • #29
                              Got same problem. Close match to my uncle who wont respond. Unfortunately email does not come up in google search. Im guessing since part of my family is not white, some have Spanish names and the match claims to be all white From Europe ( they match my uncle on one of his Indian markers per McDonalds chrom chart and they do match other people from the US who are FPC). This match seems to have a "White" complex. Their loss in knowing their true history.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                                Got same problem. Close match to my uncle who wont respond. Unfortunately email does not come up in google search. Im guessing since part of my family is not white, some have Spanish names and the match claims to be all white From Europe ( they match my uncle on one of his Indian markers per McDonalds chrom chart and they do match other people from the US who are FPC). This match seems to have a "White" complex. Their loss in knowing their true history.
                                How do you know, why he want reply? Maybe he tired of people playing the race card and since anything he might do will be referred to as "white complex" he just doesn't bother. I have a ton of matches that don't reply some I think are from other races and got a surprise to find them self's related to another race. I remember the first time i cam across one of your post you seemed to be a little militant about what you were doing something about trying to gather your people Mexican and Indian with some animosity towards another race. Maybe I read it wrong or took it the wrong way because you seem to help others even those who you have had some disagreement with including myself.

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