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  • #16
    Originally posted by mkdexter View Post
    The average on a certain marker may be three gens and on another marker the average may be hundreds of generations. Each marker is different.

    There are a lot of results if you Google this but here's one to start with, note the differing mutation rates depending on which markers.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DYS_markers
    Thanks for the info.I dont think that it is possible to have an average mutation rate for 37 or 67 markers.Thats why I think the McGee utility is years out in the TMRCA estimates.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by 1798 View Post
      Thanks for the info.I dont think that it is possible to have an average mutation rate for 37 or 67 markers.Thats why I think the McGee utility is years out in the TMRCA estimates.
      I'm not sure about any of these predictive calculation tools, but did you try all of the alternative mutation rates in the McGee calculator (Constant, FTDNA and McDonald)?

      Are you using the default 30 years per generation?

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      • #18
        I have 952 11/12 matches and 28 12/12 matches in 40 different countries.This info is on my RAO page.I am 2 of the AMH at 12 and 25 markers.The AMH isn't just a modal haplotype.Do you think it is close to the founder haplotype?That would make it 18,000 -25,000 years old!!!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by 1798 View Post
          I have 952 11/12 matches and 28 12/12 matches in 40 different countries.This info is on my RAO page.I am 2 of the AMH at 12 and 25 markers.The AMH isn't just a modal haplotype.Do you think it is close to the founder haplotype?That would make it 18,000 -25,000 years old!!!
          No, R1b1b2 isn't that old. R1 (M173) is about that old, but R1b1b2 (M269) is much younger.

          From the ISOGG (International Society of Genetic Genealogy) R Tree page:

          Haplogroup R1b1b2 (M269) is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1b2 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in haplogroup R1b1b2a1a (P310/S129) and most European R1b1b2 belongs to haplogroups R1b1b2a1a1 (U106) or R1b1b2a1a2 (P312/S116).
          Last edited by Stevo; 19 June 2010, 05:05 PM.

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          • #20
            The AMH has to be close to the founder haplotype of haplogroup R1b and the first R man lived 18-25,000 years ago.Why else would I have so many 12 marker matches in 40 different countries. Someone at dna forums once said that mutations happen every three generations. If mutations happen on average every three generations at 67 markers, then I would have 180 mutations from the next R1b man.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
              The AMH has to be close to the founder haplotype of haplogroup R1b and the first R man lived 18-25,000 years ago.Why else would I have so many 12 marker matches in 40 different countries. Someone at dna forums once said that mutations happen every three generations. If mutations happen on average every three generations at 67 markers, then I would have 180 mutations from the next R1b man.
              Do you really think a modern man, such as yourself, born in the 20th century, would match the haplotype of a founder who lived 18,000-25,000 years ago?

              The reason you have so many matches, although 12-marker matches aren't all that significant, is because whatever clade of R1b1b2 you belong to is NOT all that old.

              The AMH probably stems from the Bronze or Copper Age or perhaps the Neolithic Period at the oldest.

              Mutations do not always move in the same direction, and they occur randomly. So, no, you should not have 180 mutations from the next R1b man.

              Remember also that we are probably speaking of some downstream clade of P310 to which you belong, one of the branches of either P312 or U106, and not "R1b" (M343).

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              • #22
                We shouldn't have that many mutations.

                It's like running a document thru a copy machine.

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                • #23
                  I have found, through personal analysis of several of my R1b1b2 surnames, that y-str data (whether at 12, 25, 37, or 67 markers) becomes very unreliable when trying to determine kinships that are several thousand years old. We really have to rely on SNPs if the connection is probably more than 1,000 or 1,500 years back. This is because the odds increase that one of the compared parties will have had a one step mutation on a really slow moving marker. I have had to deal with cases where two men who are U152+ & L2+ appear to be more distantly related to each other than they are to L21* families. Another case involves a family that is only L23* (negative for everything downstream of that), who appears to be more closely related to L21+ men than to U152+ men.

                  Timothy Peterman

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by royfarnol View Post
                    I was wondering what kind of percentage of Norse DNA is in the Irish population (including I suppose emigrants)?

                    I just happened to be watching a documentary yesterday In search of Ancient Ireland came out in 2002. It goes into the Norse invading Ireland, This documentary is about 3 hours long

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                      I just happened to be watching a documentary yesterday In search of Ancient Ireland came out in 2002. It goes into the Norse invading Ireland, This documentary is about 3 hours long
                      Seems it is a three part series:

                      http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ancientireland/about.html

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by gtc View Post
                        Seems it is a three part series:

                        http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ancientireland/about.html
                        It is but it is on one disc if you rent it so its a little over 3 hours long.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by royfarnol View Post
                          I was wondering what kind of percentage of Norse DNA is in the Irish population (including I suppose emigrants)?
                          Just found something interesting-3 party match on FF. All of us have "MC" in our surnames although the surnames don't match. One match is 3-5th cousin. The other 4th cousin or greater. The 4th cousin or grater's YDNA is Norse but claims Ireland. Have not spoken to this person yet but my other match and I sent this person a 3 way so hopefully they respond. My other match an I both descend from female 'MC" so no Y DNA to compare.

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                          • #28
                            For anyone out there with Irish roots.
                            Scientists have sequenced the complete genetic code of an Irish person for the first time.The landmark study,due to be published in the online journal Genome Biology, provides the first complete genetic picture of the Irish branch of the European ancestral tree.This is from the Irish Times newspaper today.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 1798 View Post
                              For anyone out there with Irish roots.
                              Scientists have sequenced the complete genetic code of an Irish person for the first time.The landmark study,due to be published in the online journal Genome Biology, provides the first complete genetic picture of the Irish branch of the European ancestral tree.This is from the Irish Times newspaper today.
                              Very kewl! Thanks for the info.

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