Irish dna

[1798]

Recently, I persuaded a relative to take a ytest here in Ireland.I paid for a 37 marker test and we match at 36/37 markers.I am surprised at how acccurate the results are.We are out one at DYS CDYb.He is the only match that I have at 37 markers eventhough there are at least 12000 people of Irish descent tested.All I can say is thanks to FTDNA.

[gtc]

I am surprised at how acccurate the results are.We are out one at DYS CDYb.

I gather from elsewhere that the CDY marker is a very fast mutator, possibly the fastest, so your results seem to accord with that.

He is the only match that I have at 37 markers even though there are at least 12000 people of Irish descent tested.

I have none at 37, and none even close at 12.

I'm coming around to the conclusion that my patrilineal line may have died/daughtered out in Ireland ... either that or none have tested and put their results online.

But, I live in hope ...

[1798]

I have 221 (12) marker matches and 24 (25 )marker matches.I belong to a small group that came here or else a lot of them died out as well.I think you will find matches as more people are tested.

[1798]

I have 221 (12) marker matches and 24 (25 )marker matches.I belong to a small group that came here or else a lot of them died out as well.I think you will find matches as more people are tested.

I forgot to mention that most of these matches are people of the P312 subgroup.I belong to U106.Our common ancestor would have been P310 as far as I know.So we still have a similar 12 marker haplotype after 5000 years.Can anyone tell me what is the reason for this?There are people writing on dna -forums who say that the average mutation happens every three generations!!!

[MMaddi]

I forgot to mention that most of these matches are people of the P312 subgroup.I belong to U106.Our common ancestor would have been P310 as far as I know.So we still have a similar 12 marker haplotype after 5000 years.Can anyone tell me what is the reason for this?There are people writing on dna -forums who say that the average mutation happens every three generations!!!

First of all, don't base any judgement in genetic genealogy on just 12 markers. That's notoriously unreliable, especially in R1b1b2, which is so common among Europeans. You can't make any sound judgements about the relationship between two men until you reach 37 markers, but 67 markers are much better.

Also, R1b1b2 is a relatively young haplogroup. There just hasn't been enough time for mutations to accumulate that would easily distinguish its subclades from each other. The fact is that the modal marker values for R1b-P312 and R1b-U106 differ on 3 or 4 markers out of 67. The average mutation may be one in every three generations, but that's over 67 markers. Some of these markers are remarkably stable and don't change much in the vast majority of R1b1b2 paternal lines in hundreds or perhaps even a few thousand years. So R1b-P312 and R1b-U106, which were probably "born" within a few hundred years or less of each other, look very much alike.

That's why is so difficult to look at an R1b1b2 haplotype and predict accurately whether it will be P312+ or U106+. Only a deep clade test can do that.

[mkdexter]

I forgot to mention that most of these matches are people of the P312 subgroup.I belong to U106.Our common ancestor would have been P310 as far as I know.So we still have a similar 12 marker haplotype after 5000 years.Can anyone tell me what is the reason for this?There are people writing on dna -forums who say that the average mutation happens every three generations!!!

The average on a certain marker may be three gens and on another marker the average may be hundreds of generations. Each marker is different.

There are a lot of results if you Google this but here's one to start with, note the differing mutation rates depending on which markers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_DYS_markers

[Dubhthach]

Recently, I persuaded a relative to take a ytest here in Ireland.I paid for a 37 marker test and we match at 36/37 markers.I am surprised at how acccurate the results are.We are out one at DYS CDYb.He is the only match that I have at 37 markers eventhough there are at least 12000 people of Irish descent tested.All I can say is thanks to FTDNA.

Well I think the issue is due to lack of testing among people actually born in Ireland. I'm from Ireland myself and have recently tested for 67-markers. I have one match at 37-markers with a GD of 4, now that user has a surname variant that I would assume is of American origin (Duffey versus Duffy), however he doesn't have a contactable email address.

There is very little media exposure here in Ireland about genetic genealogy. There has been some media exposure in last couple years (Blood of the Irish) but it's not alot.

When you think of the population in the 1840's, if half the population was male that would be 4million men in Ireland. Now lets say the death rate and emigration rate was spilt equally between men/women. Then you could say that during famine years half million men died and half million emigrated.

So a big chunk of the diaspora origin comes from this period, however male emigrants at the time only make up 1/8 of the pre-famine male population of Ireland, so I wouldn't be surprised that some y-chromosome lineages will only start showing up as more Ireland based people get tested.

[gtc]

note the differing mutation rates depending on which markers.

I'm not big on stats. How are those stated mutation rates to be read? The closer to 0.0 the less diverse; the closer to 1.0 the more diverse? What is the unit of measure?

[royfarnol]

Norse DNA in Ireland

I was wondering what kind of percentage of Norse DNA is in the Irish population (including I suppose emigrants)?

[gtc]

Well I think the issue is due to lack of testing among people actually born in Ireland. I'm from Ireland myself and have recently tested for 67-markers. I have one match at 37-markers with a GD of 4, now that user has a surname variant that I would assume is of American origin (Duffey versus Duffy), however he doesn't have a contactable email address.

Welcome. It's always good to see an Irish person joining.

There is very little media exposure here in Ireland about genetic genealogy. There has been some media exposure in last couple years (Blood of the Irish) but it's not alot.

Thanks for that feedback. I have often felt that genetic genealogy, or perhaps genealogy in general, was not a popular thing in Ireland, although it's difficult to generalize from a distance. I guess it's a common problem that those members of any diaspora are more interested in their countries of origin than the other way around.

I have a copy of "Blood of the Irish". It's not bad as far as it goes, but I feel it concentrates too much on trying to link the current population of the western counties to migration from Iberia, which is only one small aspect of the makeup of the Irish people. I think perhaps an Irish version of "Who Do You Think You Are?" would be a better generator of local interest in genealogy -- at least that has been the experience elsewhere.

When you think of the population in the 1840's, if half the population was male that would be 4million men in Ireland. Now lets say the death rate and emigration rate was spilt equally between men/women. Then you could say that during famine years half million men died and half million emigrated.

So a big chunk of the diaspora origin comes from this period, however male emigrants at the time only make up 1/8 of the pre-famine male population of Ireland, so I wouldn't be surprised that some y-chromosome lineages will only start showing up as more Ireland based people get tested.

I truly wish more Irish men would get tested, however I can't think of a good altruistic impetus for that to occur, other than perhaps a government-sponsored effort to map the genealogical profile of the Irish, and I'm not sure how well such an initiative would be received by the Irish public.

Apart from lack of testing, I have to consider the possibility that my paternal line may have died/daughtered out in Ireland.

[Dubhthach]

Welcome. It's always good to see an Irish person joining.



Thanks for that feedback. I have often felt that genetic genealogy, or perhaps genealogy in general, was not a popular thing in Ireland, although it's difficult to generalize from a distance. I guess it's a common problem that those members of any diaspora are more interested in their countries of origin than the other way around.

I have a copy of "Blood of the Irish". It's not bad as far as it goes, but I feel it concentrates too much on trying to link the current population of the western counties to migration from Iberia, which is only one small aspect of the makeup of the Irish people. I think perhaps an Irish version of "Who Do You Think You Are?" would be a better generator of local interest in genealogy -- at least that has been the experience elsewhere.



I truly wish more Irish men would get tested, however I can't think of a good altruistic impetus for that to occur, other than perhaps a government-sponsored effort to map the genealogical profile of the Irish, and I'm not sure how well such an initiative would be received by the Irish public.

Apart from lack of testing, I have to consider the possibility that my paternal line may have died/daughtered out in Ireland.

I think genealogy in general is quite a popular trait in Irish people, though maybe not to same detailed extent as in US. Here generally I think we are more interested in stuff like sept/tribal allegiance and how that ties in with the old genealogies from before the English came.

Regarding getting more men to test, I would think the government idea probably would be a non-flyer but something like a study done by one of universities (Trinity is the lead here) could be used as a starting point. I heard recently that as part of a promotion in a pub in Athlone that they offered testing to see if people showed up as "Ui Neill" going by the supposed DYS values for Niall na Naoi nGiallach. From what I hear it was actually a very popular exercise. However I don't think anything was published on results etc.

I agree about "Blood of the Irish", there is actually an Irish version of "Who do you think you are", basically tracing celebrities/semi-celebrities ancestory through documentation etc. From what little of it that I did see I don't think they raised the idea of genetic genealogy though.

Regarding your paternal line what surname is attached to it?

[Dubhthach]

I was wondering what kind of percentage of Norse DNA is in the Irish population (including I suppose emigrants)?

Well there would be two possible sources of norse dna into Ireland. One via Vikings (there are only a couple of Viking related surnames -- Doyle for example) the second would be via the Normans. About 25% of irish surnames are non-native irish. Most of these are Anglo-Norman in origin examples been:
Fitzgearld, Butler, Burke, Lynch (though there are native Lynches as well) etc.

[gtc]

I think genealogy in general is quite a popular trait in Irish people, though maybe not to same detailed extent as in US. Here generally I think we are more interested in stuff like sept/tribal allegiance and how that ties in with the old genealogies from before the English came.

Yes, thanks for that perspective. That makes sense. It has been said elsewhere, rightly or wrongly, that the Irish sometimes seem (to outsiders at least) to have the attitude that when it comes to genealogy, "we know who we are". I guess those of us whose forbears left Ireland generations ago have a different slant -- we need to locate home county and hopefully cousins first, then we can concentrate on the sept/tribal aspects, as applicable.

Regarding getting more men to test, I would think the government idea probably would be a non-flyer but something like a study done by one of universities (Trinity is the lead here) could be used as a starting point. I heard recently that as part of a promotion in a pub in Athlone that they offered testing to see if people showed up as "Ui Neill" going by the supposed DYS values for Niall na Naoi nGiallach. From what I hear it was actually a very popular exercise. However I don't think anything was published on results etc.

Great idea, but of no real benefit unless they publish, and also use participants who have some reliable level of documented family history. I suppose I mean government funding and promotion of a (voluntary) national testing program, albeit supervised and undertaken by a respected research organization, such as Trinity.

I agree about "Blood of the Irish", there is actually an Irish version of "Who do you think you are", basically tracing celebrities/semi-celebrities ancestory through documentation etc. From what little of it that I did see I don't think they raised the idea of genetic genealogy though.

Thanks, I'll check if that series is viewable online.

Yes, I meant in the sense of popularizing genealogy where it is shown. The great pity to those of us steeped in DNA testing is that none of the WDYTYA programs even mention genetic genealogy; about the only thing that gets a plug is Ancestry.com -- which usually sponsors the series.

Regarding your paternal line what surname is attached to it?

I've sent you a PM.

[gtc]

(deleted - see below)

[gtc]

Further to my above reply (#13), my attention has been drawn to this very interesting project:

http://publish.ucc.ie/doi/atlas

I note in particular this paragraph from the Introduction:

"Likewise, funding will be sought to engage genetic anthropologists to carry out the kind of comparative DNA testing necessary to confirm or refute hypotheses about the nature of the relationships - if any - between the bearers of specific family names and their ethnic roots. It is intended to collaborate with Professor Thomas McCarthy of the Biochemistry Department at University College Cork and the Genetics Department at Trinity College Dublin, assuming adequate funding can be found for such a costly endeavour."

I believe this project is now a few years old.