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yDNA Clans for the British Isles - Oisin, Sigurd, Woden, Eshu, Re

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  • #61
    E3b1a and Ireland

    Newbie here.... as expected, DNA results for an Irish surname that is one of the original 14 Tribes of Galway are mostly R1b1. I now have an E3b1a result and need to know how, in plain English to best describe to the Project group what people would have brought that DNA to Ireland. There are folks, lots in Kinsale, at the very south of Ireland where lots of invasions took place called historically "Black Irish," rumored to have Spanish or Portugese origins. These folks have black hair and eyes and darker skin rather than the brown/red hair and Brown/blue eyes and freckled skin so often associated with Irish peoples.

    I have read of E3b1a connections to the Balkans, but need to know what to look at for the almost non-existent E3b1as in Ireland... this is a new project and we are trying to learn as we go - please be gentle!

    All help appreciated.

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    • #62
      janamb:

      there have been several discussions about E3b in the UK in these forum, so perhaps you can get more information there. There is also an E3b project at FTDNA, and that seems like a good place to start.

      E3b is an ancient group with many subgroups. The main variety found in Europe is the Balkan one that you mention. It reached the Balkans perhaps 4-5 thousand years ago at least, so there's plenty of time for it to have moved north to the UK. Some of the discussions on this forum suggested that Thracian soldiers in the Roman army that occupied England were a potential source for E3b, as Thracians come from the Balkans. (Perhaps a search for "Thracian soldier" may uncover some of the discussions in this forum about E3b).

      There are other varieties of E3b that are typical of Northern Africa and present (though at low frequencies) in Italy and Spain, so such a variety may indicate a possible origin more like the first one you mention.

      I think the STR values may sometimes give an indication on which variety of E3b one is talking about, though a deep test will confirm that for sure.

      cacio

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      • #63
        Woden/Wodan

        Is Wodan/Woden realy a celtic tribe or rather, a Clan of the British Isles?

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        • #64
          Odin was the chief God of the Norse; Woden of some Germanic tribes that came to Britain. Definitly not Celtic or Keltic.

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          • #65
            I know that, but in the thread headline you can read "Woden" as a Clan. But Wodan(German Word) is the Teutonic God of War and the "Headgod" of the germanic tribes. In the Nordic Mythology its Odin.

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            • #66
              These names are entertaining.

              Perhaps they were created for easier reference to them by people who weren't very interested in studying their DNA any further then the first test they had done with Sykes company.

              But I'm still not sure which name is for which Haplogroup....

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              • #67
                "Wodan" and "Odin" are one and the same god.
                Its however that for Norse people this gods name is "Odin" and for Anglo Saxons it was "Wodan". Franks would call him "Wotan" (With T) before they became christians.

                Some other tribes called him "Odan".

                Similiar effects exist with the other gods too.
                What Norse call "Thor" is what Anglo-Saxons called "Thunor" and tribes from central Germany called him "Donar".

                That is comparable with the fact that biblical characters names also differ from country to country.

                Virgin Mary for example is named "Maria" in German. And her original Hebrew name is "Mirjam"

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                • #68
                  Sykes names reflect a very simplified idea.

                  R1b = Oisin
                  Oisin is a CELTIC river god.
                  This reflects the idea that Celts are R1b

                  I1 = Wodan
                  The Norse/Germanic headgod
                  Reflects the idea that I1=Germanic

                  R1a = Sigurd
                  Sigurd is the Dragonslayer in the Norse/Germanic legend. His German name is Siegfried.
                  Reflects the simplified idea of R1a = viking

                  Well, we all know, its not THAT simple.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
                    Sykes names reflect a very simplified idea.

                    R1b = Oisin
                    Oisin is a CELTIC river god.
                    This reflects the idea that Celts are R1b

                    I1 = Wodan
                    The Norse/Germanic headgod
                    Reflects the idea that I1=Germanic

                    R1a = Sigurd
                    Sigurd is the Dragonslayer in the Norse/Germanic legend. His German name is Siegfried.
                    Reflects the simplified idea of R1a = viking

                    Well, we all know, its not THAT simple.
                    Thanks for that answer.

                    Why would he have just picked Oisin? What about Fionn mac Cumhaill or [The] Dagda? The Dagda was more important then Oisin. The Dagda is depicted as being a figure of immense power. Or what about Aengus the son of Dagda and Boann?

                    Are these names still used with Oxford Ancestry? I have a relative who tested with them (mtDNA J1) and they were told they were of the mtDNA Clan Jasmine and that they were Celtic. How would they know?

                    I've tried to get this relative to test with another company such as FTDNA. To get results with no fancy-shmancy names.
                    Last edited by spruithean; 13 June 2009, 11:04 AM.

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                    • #70
                      I've tried to get this relative to test with another company such as FTDNA. To get results with no fancy-shmancy names.
                      Well, the "results" would be the same anyways.
                      FTNDA would just not give "Interpretations", but leave you to your own.

                      Me for example tested with www.iGENEA.com
                      thats an FTDNA Reseller. Means: FTDNA makes the testing and gives the results and that reseller gives an aditional interpretation of the results.

                      They aswell try to connect you to an ancient people like Celts or Teutons or Slavs or Illyrians etc. and claim they have ancient DNA to do this. I found this idea quiet cool, but meanwhile I have more and more doubts about how serious one can take that.

                      their interpretation for my results was:

                      Male lineage:
                      Primitive Tribe (connection to ancient people, by comparation to suposedly ancient DNA): Teutons
                      country of origin (country where that haplotype is NOW the most common): Poland

                      Female lineage:
                      Primitive tribe: Teutons
                      country of origin: Germany

                      ...

                      So, a "Teuton" from Poland. What would it make me? A Goth, Burgundian, Lugian, Rugian?
                      Where is the ancient DNA from, wich suggested this? I would really like to know.....
                      Last edited by Daniel72; 13 June 2009, 12:44 PM.

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                      • #71
                        Nordic vs Slavic DNA strains R1b1b2

                        There seems to be a lot of discussion here that is irrelevant. History tells us that the Norse men raided and then settled many areas of Europe during its history. The British Isles are just closer to there point of Origin and were more highly settled by the Norse. The Russian people are part of that Nordic history (the Kievan Rus were Norsemen) as are parts of the early Spainish, Italian, French, German and Slavic peoples. I suspect that the R1 strain of Y DNA is Nordic in origin although it was disseminated throughout the Northern Hemisphere at a time when history was just beginning to be written.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by timrich1952 View Post
                          I suspect that the R1 strain of Y DNA is Nordic in origin although it was disseminated throughout the Northern Hemisphere at a time when history was just beginning to be written.
                          Of course not.
                          The R1 strain of Y-DNA is from Russia.
                          But atm, the R1 strain is usualy connected to the Indo-European languages, wich includes the Norse/Germanic ones.

                          In some language theories, the branch of the celtic languages meets up with the romance languages before reaching the Indo-European branch. While the Norse/Germanic languages meet with the Balto-Slavic language branch before leading into the Indo-European one.

                          This suggests that the R1a in Scandinavia are the ones who brought the Norse/Germanic language to Scandinavia. Possibly during the "Corded Ware" age.



                          It also matches with the Legend of warlord Odin heading from Asaland (Asia?) Coming over Saxland (Germany), where his sons established several kingdoms and finaly ending up in Nordland (the middle part of Norway. Wich is Scandinavias region with the highest R1a frequency.

                          That Legend is however from the early middle ages. But.... maybe it has an older core?
                          Last edited by Daniel72; 13 June 2009, 03:31 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
                            Well, the "results" would be the same anyways.
                            FTNDA would just not give "Interpretations", but leave you to your own.

                            Me for example tested with www.iGENEA.com
                            thats an FTDNA Reseller. Means: FTDNA makes the testing and gives the results and that reseller gives an aditional interpretation of the results.

                            They aswell try to connect you to an ancient people like Celts or Teutons or Slavs or Illyrians etc. and claim they have ancient DNA to do this. I found this idea quiet cool, but meanwhile I have more and more doubts about how serious one can take that.

                            their interpretation for my results was:

                            Male lineage:
                            Primitive Tribe (connection to ancient people, by comparation to suposedly ancient DNA): Teutons
                            country of origin (country where that haplotype is NOW the most common): Poland

                            Female lineage:
                            Primitive tribe: Teutons
                            country of origin: Germany

                            ...

                            So, a "Teuton" from Poland. What would it make me? A Goth, Burgundian, Lugian, Rugian?
                            Where is the ancient DNA from, wich suggested this? I would really like to know.....
                            Indeed the results wouldn't be different but there would be no result with Clan Jasmine or anything. It would just be Haplogroup J1 (mtDNA).

                            I wonder what iGENEA would call my Primitive Tribe.... Would be interesting to see.

                            My paternal ancestor was from Scotland, and my Haplogroup is I1 as you all can see. Would that qualify under iGENEA's standards as "_______" .

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