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  • Surprise, Surprise (U5)

    After psyching myself up to have the results of my mtDNA test turn out to be a Native Ameican lineage, my results (U5) say that my maternal ancestors were responsible for the demise of the Neanderthals in Europe. Apparently they were the Cro-Magnons who drew pictures in French caves!

    The mysterious French line on my mother's side, that no one now living knows anything about, is the source (I am assuming). That was in the fur-trading days in the midwest.

    It's too bad it is a dead end line, since I can't pass it on, etc. Does anyone out there have a similar mtDNA?

  • #2
    More U5 success

    Hi, pdholen. There are a lot of people around with the U5 haplogroup as it is frequent particularly in Europe.

    If you take a look at this study called “Geographic Patterns of mtDNA Diversity in Europe” of Lucia Simoni et.al. (2000). Table 3 shows frequency distributions of different haplogroups in Europe and the Near East. http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...5&blobtype=pdf

    U5 frequencies are for example in: Albania 14.3%, Estonia 17.9%, Finland 13.9%, Iceland 11.3%, Karelia 18.1 %, Norway 10%, Saami 52.9%, Basques 10.4%, and then Caucasus, Great Britain Mainland, Swiss, Galicia, Sardinia, Southern Germany show frequencies between 8-10 %.

    Interesting that U5 also is observed in Native American Lineages, are there particular Native American U5 motifs?

    Actually many researchers find it likely that U5 (together with hg V) developed in Europe.
    "In Europe, with the exception of U5 and V, which most likely arose in situ, all mtDNA haplogroups (H, I, J, K, T, U2e, U3, U4, X, and W) are most likely of Middle Eastern origin and were introduced by either the protocolonization 45–40 thousand years ago (kya), by later arrivals in the Middle/Late Upper Paleolithic, Neolithic dispersals, or by more recent contacts (Torroni et al. 1998; Richards et al. 2000)."
    I also have U5, but my ancestors were probably not among the cave decorating Cro-Magnons. They are the Saami people up in the northwestern corner of Europe, and fortunately the Saami genes are geographically traceable mainly because of isolation in the cold climate and more recently because of language, cultural and social factors. Getting the results from the genetic test has made me a hobby genealogist and with good helpers I have been able to trace some Saami relatives back to the beginning of 1600 and also to trace up a few the Saami surnames that my ancestors lost after the implementation of the Norwegian name system where only given name and patronymic name are included.

    In childhood I always wondered where we belonged … somewhere far away… Now I know more.

    For me to the mtDNA test result was a great success.

    The Saami people are not recent immigrants as they have been told both via official history, public talk and as part of the typical ethnic and personal harassment…. completely turning things up side down to rationalize their own aggression. The particular U5 motif I have mutated in the previously much larger Saami areas in prehistoric times. National genographic dates the Saami culture back 15.000 – 10.000 B.C.


    ____________
    Last edited by Wena; 4 April 2006, 02:55 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
      After psyching myself up to have the results of my mtDNA test turn out to be a Native Ameican lineage, my results (U5) say that my maternal ancestors were responsible for the demise of the Neanderthals in Europe. Apparently they were the Cro-Magnons who drew pictures in French caves!.....
      You might want to join the U5 project from your personal page. They are investigating the instances of U5's with Native American ancestry.

      Bill Hurst

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      • #4
        All information I've read on NA mtDNA shows A,B,C,D and X as being NA but U is shown as European. As a matter of interest where or how does U fit into this?

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        • #5
          RE U5 thread

          4/4/06

          To continue, after my initial reaction to my test results:

          My Mother denied my hypothesis that her maternal line was probably a mix of French and Indian. I just thought that, because of the general history of the French in N.Amer., the probabilty of mixed blood was great.

          Assuming that my mtDNA test results are correct, it seems to point to the upper class of French settlers, since the majority of Frenchmen in the interior at least, did not bring their women with them.

          I have recently read the book: "Before Lewis and Clark" (2004) by Shirley Christian. The French based around the middle Mississippi Valley mostly came up from New Orleans and originally from SW France, although there was a strong trade connection with Quebec via the Great Lakes. And that is where my hypothesis came in. (At least the extended French family being written about came from SW France.)

          My parents are from Madison, Wisconsin; and mostly derived from German (including swarthy Austrian and light "Pennsylvania Dutch") and Norwegian stock. It is only the mysterious French lineage holding my mtDNA that bothers me. And that tenuously traces to the Portage, Wisconsin area. But I can't find records to prove that - just what I remember my grandmother telling me casually (at least last name and a French connection). I wish I'd have paid more attention! It's possible that a French trader (of Quebec origins?) went down river to find a French wife, and brought her back to Portage. How's that for imagination!

          Since I am going on 69 years old, that history is closer to me than it would be to younger generations. And as I said before, this "U5" line is at a dead end with me and my immediate family.
          Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 4 April 2006, 09:00 PM. Reason: adjustments

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          • #6
            Originally posted by MAB
            All information I've read on NA mtDNA shows A,B,C,D and X as being NA but U is shown as European. As a matter of interest where or how does U fit into this?

            I will try to answer your question by referring to the following texts.



            “The Peopling of Europe from the Maternal and Paternal Perspectives” Lell, J.T. & Wallace, D.C. (2000):

            The western-Eurasian haplogroup U has been found at low frequencies in western as well as eastern Africa, raising the possibility of a relatively ancient African origin for this haplogroup (Torroni et al. 1996; Chen et al. 2000). If so, then haplogroup U might have participated in one of the earliest migrations from Africa to the Near East and Europe. This deduction is supported by the work of Richards et al. (2000).

            http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...4&blobtype=pdf

            The time estimations in this article for mtDNA population of Europe is chronologically:

            1) 7% of the European mtDNA pool is U5 that migrated from the Near East about 45000 years BP.
            2) 25% of European mtDNA HV*, U1, U2 and U4 came from the Near East about 26000 years BP.
            3) 36 % of European haplogroups H, K, T*, T2, W and X came from the Near East about 14500 years BP.
            4) 23 % of Europe mtDNA haplogroups arrived from the Near East about 9000 years. BP, these are haplogroups J, T1 and T3.



            If you take a look at table 1 in the article of Richards et.al (2000) you will see that haplogroup U is estimated to be younger in the Near East (50,400–58,300) than in Europe (53,600–58,900). This possible means that they believe that haplogroup U developed in Europe, but I have never seen that hypothesis discussed. I know that

            http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Richards2000.pdf


            If you take a look at another subhaplogroup of U, namely the north African (Berber) U6 mtDNA haplogroup it is supposed to have back migrated from the Near East and Caucasus between 39000 – 52000 year BP. See Maca-Meyer et.al. (2003):

            http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...1&blobtype=pdf

            My best guess is that there are more controversies about the origin of haplogroup U (Near East or Europe), while there is less controversy about U5 being European.

            ______

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            • #7
              Hi PDHOTLEN.

              Can you share what mutations of U5 you have?

              My U5 Motif is defined by the following mutations (16144, 16189, 16270).



              ________

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              • #8
                My mysterious U5

                April 4, 2006

                I am not very skilled at using a computer. I just have a small laptop, and use it for little more than e-mails, etc. So I am skipping the complicated maneuvering offered at my FT DNA site. But I see no reason to hide what I am (assuming I really am what FT-DNA said I am, mtDNA-wise).

                So here goes.

                HVR1: 16270T and 16519C

                HVR2: 73G, 150T, 228A, 263G, 309.1C and 315.1C.The last two are
                insertions.

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                • #9
                  Basques = U5?

                  It seems logical to think that the Basques would be strongly represented by Haplogroup U5. Have any persons of Basque ancestry been mtDNA-tested?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN

                    HVR1: 16270T and 16519C

                    HVR2: 73G, 150T, 228A, 263G, 309.1C and 315.1C.The last two are
                    insertions.
                    Hi again PDHOTLEN From the article I referred to earlier, you can see that the Basques have a U5 frequency of 10.4%. I am not an expert, but my guess that your motif is U5 or U5a, is it so?

                    Here are URL’s for The World Family Network where you can add your U5 family. There are other Native Americans with U5 around.

                    http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/u/u5/rec.html
                    http://www.wfnforum.net/index.php?to...sg8143#msg8143


                    This is a relevant study from Achilli et.al. (2005), however there are no matches to your U5 in this article. http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/U_paper.pdf

                    John in this discussion has a similar motif, but U5b (there is an additional 16189) in his motif: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-02/1139641640


                    Enjoy the Travel!



                    ___________

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                    • #11
                      U5 thread

                      Hi again;

                      I hope I'm not boring everybody.

                      I don't know anything about "motifs" or the designations a or b. I'll look again at the report I received via email from FT DNA. But I don't recall that level of identiification.

                      I don't know, since I received the results, that I actually do have any Native American blood. If so, then it would be outside the mtDNA or Y-DNA. No one in my family ever claimed to be part "Indian."

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                      • #12
                        U5 thread

                        This may not have anything to do with Haplogroup U5, but I just want to make a broad generalized observation.

                        In roaming around a geneology website (that I clicked on), I noticed the Cherokee Tribe mentioned. I can't give specifics, but I've heard from more than one source that the qualifications to belong to that particular tribe are very loose. They often appear to be more caucasian than "Indian." For example, I met one lady who claimed legal Cherokee membership who was blond and blue eyed!

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                        • #13
                          John James Audubon a U5?

                          Here is another leap of my imagination.

                          If my U5 is traceable to the early Mississippi French, then the famous bird artiist may also be U5!

                          The French settlers at St.Louis, MO, Kaskaskia,IL and area, were an offshoot of the New Orleans French. And they in turn had a close and continuing relationship with their support base that is now Haiti. And J.J. Audubon was born in Ste.Domingue - the later Haiti.

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                          • #14
                            To be able to register as NA you have to be able to prove that you are at least one sixteenth NA. There are some people who look Afro-American but who have a full blooded NA parent and therefore the same applies to a blond, blue-eyed person. You just have to remember that some genes are stronger than others and that in one family you could have a family member who is blue eyed and blond and one who is dark haired and brown eyed or other combinations. You can't judge a book by it's cover, usually.

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                            • #15
                              ...my results (U5) say that my maternal ancestors were responsible for the demise of the Neanderthals in Europe. Apparently they were the Cro-Magnons who drew pictures in French caves!
                              I thought that the artistic caves dwellers were the R1 groups? Was it not Dr. Spencer Wells that stated that factoid on the Genographic Project DVD?

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