Yde, born 1506 in Denmark; father Scot, mother Gypsy

[Donald Locke]

Having done my fair share of Roma / Romanichal genealogical and DNA research myself, I can attest that Yde is correct in presuming the Gordon surname of Scotland does have some Romancihal admixture in their family tree.

I have seen the Gordon surname being named as a Scottish Egyptian / Gypsy in various account.

I personally do not know of any male of the Gordon surname carrying Y Haplogroup H-M82 and if there were such a Gordon male carrying M82, that would be the key clue to him being of Romanichal ancestry for sure.

Here is a good clue to look for, for you whom have done the Family Finder or similar autosomal DNA test. In your autosomal matches, look for men whom you are a match with whom do carry H-M82 and or females whom carry mt Haplo M5a1b* as both are South Asian in origin and either of those 2 Haplogroups being found in your autosomal matches, could very well be a great clue to you having Roma / Romanichal ties in your family tree.

On average, around 50% of the Roma / Romany male population is known to carry H-M82 and the females carry around 20% to 30% M5a1b*. So finding any matches to either male or female Haplogroups could be the Roma / Romany clues you are seeking.

I am of Romanichal ancestry, I am in Y Haplogroup H-M82 and thanks to my Big Y upgrade, I was just moved in to a deeper subclade of M82, I am now placed in a newly identified
H-SK1225 which is downstream of M82.

[Yde]

Gulf of Bothnia seems to have been closely linked to the British Isles

I base the work on all things that can be used in the search of family who lived centuries ago. Written sources like sagas, carbon-14, dendrochronology, iron age pottery and so on - and more recently DNA.

I think the written sources alone explains that my dna-molecules in July 1505 sailed on a boat from Scotland to Denmark.

A few hundred years before the year 1505 they came to Scotland from Normandy - or maybe Flanders?

Where did this part of the Vikings or Angles live before settling in Normandy by the river Seine or other land near the Channel?

I think the arrow points back to east Sweden, places where king Fornjót is said to have ruled.

DNA-experts said:
- The branch that became Gordon/Douglas went its separate way some 2900 years ago. Mr Yde, on the other hand is positive for the S12289 and the next SNP down the line, S1990. Thus, his line went its separate way some 2000 years ago. There is no way he is a Gordon. Based on STR markers, it looked like the Parrotts and Gordons went their separate ways 900 years ago, but SNPs makes it clear that it was more like 2000 years ago, said Wayne Parrott, quoted by Jim Gordon.

- Mr. Peterson and Yde, at last, I found you a match. Looks like your Big-Y match comes from Sweden. Peterson and Yde form a new "I1-Z2535/S1953+ [04dgpy] A2094+ A2108+ A2084+ Branch". Your new terminal SNP is I-A2084. The Gulf of Bothnia seems to have been closely linked to the British Isles, said William Hartley, Jan-Feb. 2017.

And before that men with this signature lived in or near Trondheim, Norway, in the first century AD, I claim.

[spruithean]

Wouldn't it make more sense for your patrilineal ancestors to have simply originated in Denmark as opposed to Scotland? I-Z140 is fairly common in Denmark. Plus I-A2094 (upstream of I-A2087) is found in Sweden.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y4015/

What is your TMRCA like with these Scottish families?

[Yde]

I1-Z140, A2087

This year I ended up taking the BigY test + YFull.

The result cancelled my idea of a connection between Gordons and me within the time of surnames known to be in use. Our MRCA namely lived around 3000 years ago, the experts tell. It has been difficult for me to understand that STR could be that much wrong. At this moment I have 23 matches on the Y67-level of which 14 are Gordons, but I understand these 61/67 and 60/67 results are without value in my case.

I have two matches 65/67 and 64/67 with ancestors near the Limfjord, North Jutland. Mr. "64/67" has also taken a BigY and our common ancestor Jens Madsen Yde, born 1706, is now on YFull's tree, I1-Z140, A2087.

I have not changed my view on a forefather from Scotland, and maybe the mother of the first Yde born in Denmark in 1506 also was Scottish.

Based on all available information my conclusion as of sept. 2017 is, that "my" y-dna-molecules spent a long time by the Atlantic coast of Norway and in the 1st century AD went from the area around the Trondheim Fjord to East Sweden. Later they sailed to Hedeby on the south of the Jutland peninsula and further on to Normandy, France. A thousand years ago they moved to England/Scotland and in July 1505 sailed from Edinburgh to Aalborg, Limfjorden, Denmark, and then went west.

The latest tour based on this:
A: In my family the old ones said that the first Yde was born, left and "ydet" (english Given) on Vilsund Strand by the Limfjord, Denmark, when a group of gypsies did encamp.
B: In July 1505 the Scottish king James IV Stewart wrote to his mother's brother in Denmark, king Hans, born in Aalborg, Limfjorden, if he would be so kind to take care of a group of gypsies arriving under the leadership of a lord from Little Egypt, Anthony Gagino.
C: In 1512 a group with a leader named "count Antony" arrived to Stockholm, Sweden, where they had never seen such people before.
D: Swedish archbishop Petri wrote in 1573 that these "tatars" never saw Egypt but were mostly "skottar, jutar, baggar och än svenskar" (people from Scotland, Jutland with Limfjorden, Norway - baggar are horses - and even from Sweden).
E: Tests of my y-dna show a remarkable big number of matches with men with ancestors from Scotland. Many Scottish clans origin is Normandy, France, and came to Scotland a thousand years ago as descendants of Vikings.

[Yde]

"Most of them are Scots, Jutes, Norsemen and even Swedes"

I have upgraded from the 67 level to the 111 level. It completely changed the probabilities of sharing a common ancestor with men named Gordon within “the last 16 and 24 generations”.

The ftdnaTiP calculator gave - I first thought - a credible estimate of "time to most recent common ancestors" on both the 37 and 67 level, where I based the credibility on a comparison with a letter from king James IV of Scotland in 1505 to his uncle king Hans of Denmark.

But TMRCA of 10 out of 11 ftdna-matches with the Gordons on the 67 level are now being estimated to be much older after this new comparison on the 111 level. We match 60/67 and 61/67 and now ca. 94/111.

The 11th match, with Peterson, shows that the 67 level estimate was credible, especially after papers revealed that we have a common ancestor, Jens Madsen Yde, born 1706. We match 64/67 and 107/111.

In five different examples you can see how much percentages can change from 67 to 111 markers.

Mr. A. Gordon and Yde at 67-level
Generations: and probability
16: 76,91%
24: 97,36%
Mr. A. Gordon and Yde at 111-level
16: 4,75%
24: 45,07%
= = =
Mr. B. Gordon and Yde on 67 markers
16: 76,91%
24: 97,36%
Mr. B. Gordon and Yde on 111 markers
16: 2,65%
24: 35,40%
= = =
Mr. C. Gordon and Yde at the 67-level
16: 61,44%
24: 93,35%
Mr. C. Gordon and Yde at the 111-level.
16: 4,11%
24: 41,97%
= = =
Mr. D. Gordon and Yde at 67-level
16: 61,44%
24: 93,35%
Mr. D. Gordon and Yde at 111-level
16: 2,26%
24: 32,47%
= = =
Mr. Peterson and Yde on 67 markers
16: 97,86%
24: 99,92%
Mr. Peterson and Yde on 111 markers
4: 24,00%
8: 75,01%
12: 95,22%
16: 99,33%
20: 99,92%
24: 99,99%
= = =

My conclusion is still that the father and mother of Yde, born 1506 in Denmark, was a man in Scotland and that the mother belonged to a group of gypsies/rowmais who sailed across the North Sea - a distance longer than from Houston to Yucatan or from San Diego to San Francisco.

Further, that an ancestor of the man in Scotland once came from Normandy, France. Did some of his ancestors in person know Rollo (ca. 860-932)? Did the ancestor before that sail down from Norway via Orkney Islands to Normandy? Or did Rollo and his accompaniers - as Guillaume/William de Jumièges, b. ca 1000, tells - come from Danish town of Fakse on Sealand? And was Rollo on Sealand then a descendant of Fornjot, King of Gotland, Kvenland and Finland?

The Romani on their side later arrived in Finland – which at that time was part of Sweden – in 1512. In 1573 Archbishop Laurentius Petri questioned the Egyptian origins and morals of these ‘Tatars’: ‘They claim to come from Egypt Minor, which is nothing but a lie, as they have never been to Egypt. Most of them are Scots, Jutes, Norsemen and even Swedes who have joined their numbers so that they may exercise such accursed arbitrariness.’ (From "Suomen romanien historia") So maybe they shortly after 1506 took a boat from Jutland to Norway?

[PDHOTLEN]

If any of you suspect Gypsy/Roma/Tzigana/Zigeuner in your own DNA, then it might be amusing to take an autosomal test at Ancestry.com. As for myself, they give me 98% western European (broken down further), 1% Caucasus, and "<1%" South Asian! That South Asian could somehow be Gypsy, or it could be directly from India in colonial times via British or Portuguese. I'm just speculating. My known tree does not have any known Gypsy or South Asian, so it must be from a long time ago.

[Aperipatetic1]

I myself have 11 matches on the 67-level. 10 have the name Gordon and none of these do not yet show to have a known common ancestor .

I am not personally a customer of FTDNA for Y, so I am asking this as a clarification.. what are you considering a 'match' at the 67 STR level? From my understanding, you actually have no exact matches at the 67 STR level. I am not asserting that the following is what you are doing, because I do not know, however it would be incorrect in my opinion to try to 'hold' the top 10 match slots for 'Gordon' testees.

The reason is, you know with virtual certainty that all are representative of ONE singular paternal line descendency, and thus all would cumulatively account for only one paternal line match, no matter how many of them have been tested. It would be fair to at least for comparison purposes average their repeat mismatch to attempt to best deduce a ancestral Ht, but it still only counts for one line.

I would be careful not to fill the top slots with 'Gordons' to the exclusion of close matches who are not 'Gordons' because there could be a skewing side effect if you inadvertently treat each individual testee, who are all of a mutual common line, as separate 'matches'.

Of 318 25-matches I have counted this: Gordon 53, Daniel 17 Allison 12, Compton 11, Wise 9 Carter 9, Cobb 7, Parrott 6 There are in all 73 24/25-matches, but they give no clear picture except “British”.
Peterson has me as his only 37- and 67-level match, and Peterson only has 85 25-level matches of which: Wise 9, Compton 6, Cobb 5, Gordon 4, King 3, Lane 3.
Both Peterson and Yde are wondering why Peterson has so few Gordon (4) and Yde has so many (53).

Like I said several posts ago, the database is probably quite skewed toward Isles, Colonial, Scots, and Ulster origin testees, since this sort of test is particularly popular with Americans, and particularly so with early Colonial migrants because they cannot simply look at a modern census forms, steamship passenger lists, or retained Ellis Island records that are fairly easily accessible for most later immigrants. Fairly as well, a lot of people from Denmark and Norway settled in the British Isles over a long period of time. Well into the industrial age, England was a prime destination for Swedes and Norwegians seeking non-farm, industrial, or manufacturing jobs.

If you skewed a database with lots of Poles or lots of Italians, you would still have close I1 matches in those population groups too. Petersen could be closer to the ancestral paternal Ht, and your STR's could have diverged away from his, mimicking the values that are modal for the Gordon line. Conversely, his repeats could have mutated away from the ancestral Ht, while yours did not.

Maybe if this region is rural and fairly un-impacted by mass migrations, you can convince others in this locality to test, and assess how homogeneous the overall Hg environment is in this area. In any area controlled at a early time by a strong man ruler, or his offspring, a lot of lines are going to follow the 'Genghis model' in which his descendency is prolific and magnified. I would not be surprised to find this in a society or regional kingdom / fiefdom evolved from circa Dark-Ages Denmark.

I can only see the arrow is pointing almost 100 percent towards Scotland and Normandy in searching for ancestors of Yde from Vilsund Strand, born 1506, plus “an unknown but quite high number of percent” towards an ancestor in clan Gordon who lived in 1505.

There is a commonly noted truism along the lines of "when you go looking for something, you will always find exactly what you went looking for."

Alternately, quoting Bill Pullman from Zero Effect-

"Now, a few words on looking for things. When you go looking for something specific, your chances of finding it are very bad. Because of all the things in the world, you're only looking for one of them. When you go looking for anything at all, your chances of finding it are very good. Because of all the things in the world, you're sure to find some of them."

What you say is certainly not impossible, and it could even by true, but I would encourage you to look at all possibilities instead of focusing on only confirming the one.

[Donald Locke]

Yde, have you done the Family Finder DNA test? If not that is a test you might consider doing one day because I know of multiple British Romanies whom have been Y DNA tested, mtDNA tested and Family Finder DNA tested.

It is a real possibility that if you have done the FF test, that you may have British Romani matches and not be aware of it because you may not know what their surnames are yet.

Of the British Romanies, they carry the following surnames, not a complete list by any means. Lock / Locke, Boswell, Stanley, Lee, Cooper, Gray, Burton, Ingram, Ayres, Smith, to name a few of their surnames.

Even though your connection is a very old kinship, it is a possibility you have Romani FF matches and not even know it unless you understand all their surnames.

The only Scottish Romanies that I know of whom have been involved in DNA testing are the Bailey and Campbell family's of the USA, who's ancestors were transported as convicts.

[Donald Locke]

I know I am late to this discussion, but the Gordon surname is known to me as being a surname known to the Scottish Romanichal Gypsy clan.

Author; David Dobson wrote a book about Scottish convicts being transported to the American Colonies which I think is available on the Ancestry.com web site if you are a member of that site. Anyways one of convicts named by David Dobson was a Gordon identified as a Gypsy having been transported to the American Colonies.

There are around a dozen such entries in that book that identifies multiple Scottish Romanichal Gypsies having been transported. Off the top of my head if I recall correctly the book named the following surnames as Gypsies being transported as convicts; Bailey / Ballie, Gordon, Faa, among a few others.

Now was Gordon paternal ancestry Scottish or Romani Gypsy? I do not know the answer to that, but it certainly appears there is one Gordon branch of Scotland with Romani blood ties.

Of the Scottish Romani Gypsy surnames are as follows;
Bailey / Ballie, Faa, Blyth, Young, Gordon, Campbell to name a few of their surnames.

I can say that of those specific surnames, men of the Bailey and Campbell surnames in the USA have been Y DNA tested, both confirmed to be in
Y Haplogroup H1a - M82

http://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/jean.html

[Yde]

64/67: shown to be a common forefather Yde born 1706

My closest match is a 64/67, who is a descendant of a man Peterson born 1841 in Hellevad, a parish 25 km northeast of Aalborg, Denmark.

Now the missing link of information is found.

In the year 1840 Peterson’s mother lived in a house with two men named Yde!

Niels Peter Pedersen/Peterson was born 28 Sep 1841 in Hellevad by Else Sørensdatter (1818-1890). She lived in Klokkerholm Mill in 1840 and so did Yde Sr. and his son Yde Jr.

Yde is wrongly written Eÿde or Eyde in papers around 1840.

http://www.jacobsen1.com/genealogy/showmedia.php?mediaID=612&medialinkID=720

I have told this to Mr. Peterson in the States who explains: “Else got engaged to Peder Kristian Nielsen on 23 Oct 1841 and married on 18 Nov 1841. He is listed as the father on all the records that I know of. I have to wonder if he knew he wasn’t the father and I have to wonder if the father is Nikolaj Yde or is it his father Johan Frederik Yde?”.

Now Peterson and I have Monsieur Jens Madsen Yde and Mademoiselle Friderica Schmidt as most recent common ancestors.
Jens Madsen Yde (1706-1781) ~ Friderica Schmidt
Mads Jensen Yde (1739-1808) ~ Ide Kirstine Mathiasdatter Wagaard
Mathias Wagaard Yde (1769-1801) ~ Sophie Cathrine Mathiesdatter
Johan Frederik Mathiasen Yde (1792-1879) ~ Mette Kirstine Brandt
Nikolaj Mathias Bartholin Yde (1818-1856) ~ Ellen Marie Frederiksdatter

The two last mentioned, J. F. Yde and N.M.B. Yde, lived in Klokkerholm Mølle/Mill in Hellevad Parish. The mill stood 300-400 meters north of Hellevad Church. One of them was the father of Niels Peter Pedersen and furthermore they each fathered at least one child out of wedlock.

Farmer and miller J. F. Yde from Klokkerholm Mill fathered with Ane Kirstine Jespersdatter a boy Jens (Yde) Frederiksen born 19. October 1839 in Hellevad, who in the years 1861-1879 fathered nine children with the surname Jensen.
N. M. B. Yde from Klokkerholm Mill got a child Johan Frederik Yde on 25 March 1842 with Ellen Marie Frederiksdatter. The two later got married and c. 15 years after the man suddenly died in 1856, Ellen Marie and three sons emigrated to United States, where they took the surname Brandt because Yde was too difficult to pronounce in the States.
= = = = =

I myself have 11 matches on the 67-level. 10 have the name Gordon and none of these do not yet show to have a known common ancestor .

Of 318 25-matches I have counted this: Gordon 53, (“it is possible that the Scottish surname Gordon originated from a place name in Normandy, France, and was brought over to Scotland, where it gave rise to the place name in Berwickshire”), Daniel 17 (a sept of clan Donald; or “the surname Daniel is of Norman origin and many with this surname are descended from Roger Daniel who came from in Bayeux in Normandy”), Allison 12 (a sept of clan MacAllister; or “Leonard Allison Morrison states in his History of the Allison family that the family name Allison is interchangeable with Alençon, a family branch being schisms of the Counts and Dukes of Alençon, in Normandy), Compton 11, Wise 9 (all 9 are 24/25 and probably descendants of James Wise, born 1781), Carter 9, Cobb 7 (a sept of clan Lindsay), Parrott 6 (maybe of Pierre, from Normandy). There are in all 73 24/25-matches, but they give no clear picture except “British”.

Peterson has me as his only 37- and 67-level match, and Peterson only has 85 25-level matches of which: Wise 9, Compton 6, Cobb 5, Gordon 4, King 3, Lane 3.

Both Peterson and Yde are wondering why Peterson has so few Gordon (4) and Yde has so many (53).

Here is a calculator that shows that the surnames Gordon, Daniel, Cobb and Parrott around 1850 heavily inhabited Aberdeenshire and bordering counties in Scotland and North Yorkshire with Richmond in England.

http://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=gordon

On this link you can search surnames in Denmark and see where each surname is most common.

http://xpoint.experian.dk/navnekort/

I can only see the arrow is pointing almost 100 percent towards Scotland and Normandy in searching for ancestors of Yde from Vilsund Strand, born 1506, plus “an unknown but quite high number of percent” towards an ancestor in clan Gordon who lived in 1505.

How many Gordon-matches do a Gordon actually have on different levels?
Do experts use the above mentioned kind of information in calculating STR-markers having faster or slower mutation rates?
Both Peterson and I are willing to take further tests, but we don’t know which and maybe no test will help us any further?

[Aperipatetic1]

I have now received my 67-update.

There are 11 matches on this level of which 10 are the name Gordon. 3 of these 10 are 61/67 and 7 are 60/67.

I would say that this supports my conclusion, that the first Yde was born in 1506 on Vilsund Strand in Denmark by a woman of gypsy/roma origin and that the father was a man in Scotland named Gordon. Maybe he was a nice captain on the ship sailing from Edinburgh to Aalborg or maybe he was a bad man in the city. One can only imagine.

The 11th match is a 64/67, a descendant of men in Hellevad, a parish 25 km northeast of Aalborg, and a descendant of an immigrant Peterson to the United States in 1872.

So the case is not closed.

The case is not closed, but nothing in the case you present confirms or even hints at the scenario you describe, to be perfectly blunt and direct. There is not a precise, exacting means to define how near or remote a match is in time, based off of STR variation or mutations. A father can have a 3 or 4 repeat mismatch from his own biological son, and his brothers son can be a perfect match. One generation later it can mutate right back.. You are likely relying on promises that cannot actually deliver what they claim to be able to offer.

You are back exactly where I told you that you would be initially.. which is that the Gordon line males are a near match to your STR's, but your STR's have no indication of being contributed by a 'Gordon' surnamed male. Since they are Isles based I1, their paternal ancestor most probably originated from someplace in the Scandinavian Penninsula or Denmark. Thus, like I suggested before, you could potentially be related paternally, but through a 'stay-behind' paternal line.

A lot more members of this paternal line likely remained in one of the Scandinavian nations that the Gordon ancestor originated in than moved to the British Isles, and the most likely explanation for finding matches in Denmark to a Scotland-based Hg I1 family would be that this family that spread from Denmark to the Isles still has a paternal line presence in its place of origin.

The notion of a back migration from Scotland by a Gordon male is not substantiated by the evidence, and its not needed even if you treat the genetic mismatch at 67 markers with the greatest significance. What is known is that the Gordon males all share a common ancestor, and a similar Ht to you, however you do not have any documentation or evidence that your paternal lines diverged from a particular line, or that your ancestor had any knowledge of the existence of the Gordon family.

Given that your matches include Danish origin matches at a higher resolution STR panel (Aalborg)and we know that this person has no known relation to Scotland, Gordons, etc.. this STR Ht is present in modern Danes, and is probably the source location, not the reverse migration destination, of the Gordon line. Its not impossible that over generations members of this family made repeated trips back to say.. Denmark, however at this point its 'Chicken or the Egg' and you dont have any proof of a reverse migration but have certain knowledge that your STR Ht is present in Danes who have no ties to the Gordons or to Scotland.

[1798]

I have now received my 67-update.

There are 11 matches on this level of which 10 are the name Gordon. 3 of these 10 are 61/67 and 7 are 60/67.

Of the 61/67-matches the three participants report, that their most distant ancestors were respectively John Gordon, born c 1813, and Samuel Gordon, born c 1740 and possibly in Kirkmabreck in Scotland, while the third gives no information of the most distant ancestor.

The ftdna TiP-calculator explains that since the two mentioned Gordons and Yde did not share a common ancestor in the last 14 generations the probability that Gordon and Yde shared a common ancestor within the last 16 generations is 45,84% and in the last 18 generations it is 66,44%. Within the last 20 generations the probability is 80,15% and then we are back around the year 1330 AD.

I would say that this supports my conclusion, that the first Yde was born in 1506 on Vilsund Strand in Denmark by a woman of gypsy/roma origin and that the father was a man in Scotland named Gordon. Maybe he was a nice captain on the ship sailing from Edinburgh to Aalborg or maybe he was a bad man in the city. One can only imagine.
= = = = =

The 11th match is a 64/67, a descendant of men in Hellevad, a parish 25 km northeast of Aalborg, and a descendant of an immigrant Peterson to the United States in 1872.

The TiP-calculator says that if he and I do not share a common ancestor in the last 4 generations the probability of a shared common ancestor within the last 8 generations is 63,38% and within the last 14 generations it is no less than 94,82% and then we are back around 1506.

Peterson kindly told me in a letter, that I am his only 37-match. He only has 3 Gordon in his 25-match out of 82 total matches . He thinks if our most recent common ancestor was from the first Yde (1506-?) or later, we would see similar Gordon results in his 25-match.

So the case is not closed.

The common ancestor could be before the origin of surnames.

[Yde]

10 out of 11 of my 67-matches are Gordon

I have now received my 67-update.

There are 11 matches on this level of which 10 are the name Gordon. 3 of these 10 are 61/67 and 7 are 60/67.

Of the 61/67-matches the three participants report, that their most distant ancestors were respectively John Gordon, born c 1813, and Samuel Gordon, born c 1740 and possibly in Kirkmabreck in Scotland, while the third gives no information of the most distant ancestor.

The ftdna TiP-calculator explains that since the two mentioned Gordons and Yde did not share a common ancestor in the last 14 generations the probability that Gordon and Yde shared a common ancestor within the last 16 generations is 45,84% and in the last 18 generations it is 66,44%. Within the last 20 generations the probability is 80,15% and then we are back around the year 1330 AD.

I would say that this supports my conclusion, that the first Yde was born in 1506 on Vilsund Strand in Denmark by a woman of gypsy/roma origin and that the father was a man in Scotland named Gordon. Maybe he was a nice captain on the ship sailing from Edinburgh to Aalborg or maybe he was a bad man in the city. One can only imagine.
= = = = =

The 11th match is a 64/67, a descendant of men in Hellevad, a parish 25 km northeast of Aalborg, and a descendant of an immigrant Peterson to the United States in 1872.

The TiP-calculator says that if he and I do not share a common ancestor in the last 4 generations the probability of a shared common ancestor within the last 8 generations is 63,38% and within the last 14 generations it is no less than 94,82% and then we are back around 1506.

Peterson kindly told me in a letter, that I am his only 37-match. He only has 3 Gordon in his 25-match out of 82 total matches . He thinks if our most recent common ancestor was from the first Yde (1506-?) or later, we would see similar Gordon results in his 25-match.

So the case is not closed.

[derinos]

the first I1 in Britain?

"The first I1 at the latest came to the Isles when the Romans - those from Rome - left ca. 410, and you know that."

Comment by derinos:
European I1 had been moving north and west since about 5000 YBP as shown by recent ancient DNA samples, and the Doggerland route allowed walking to Britain.

As to ROME, that year 410 AD was not the date when "the people from Rome" departed from Britain. It was the year when Britain was finally declared no longer a Province of Rome, no longer entitled to defence by Rome.

Very few ethnic Romans had ever dwelt in Britain. The contents of the legionary cemeteries show that they were mainly recruited in the Balkans or Spain, or from Celts of Britain or Gaul.
By 410 AD least three major expeditionary depletions of the British garrisons, were marched into Europe by colonial Imperators attempting to gain the throne of Rome. The most notable was that of Emperor Constantine, ca 300 AD. He was successful, but did his share to deplete Britain of warriors to later oppose greater Germanic and Nordic immigration. More I1 DNA, but not the first.

[rbmirvin]

The first I1 at the latest came to the Isles when the Romans - those from Rome - left ca. 410, and you know that.

That's the catch: the Roman legions pulled out of Britain, but they didn't take all the intermarried families with them. The same goes for the region of Britain that comprised the Danelaw afterwards. Even after the political/military establishment was pulled out, a good chunk of population was left behind.

Then there are the Gall-Ghàidheil of Galloway, and the Norse settlers of the Hebrides, and the Shetland and Orkney Islands ... and even the Normans would have included some non-R1b folk.

On the other hand, I don't think there's any question that Great Britain and Ireland were occupied before the Celtic tribes arrived. It's *possible* that only the matrilineal lines survived to the present, but that doesn't seem to be the pattern seen from subsequent arrivals.

But they are not issue for me here. I don't guess they are my direct ancestors.

After the Gordon-things I now think my biological ancestor belonged to a much later wave.

Later than Roman, probably. Beyond that, ???

One of the reasons I'm willing to consider a subset of Gordons with a "Norse/Scandinavian" haplotype is that my own clan includes a long-standing Shetland/Orkney branch. That the majority of folks tested appear to belong to an R1b Borders group doesn't change that in the slightest. Plus, some of the Gordons have a history of being non-conformist.