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Yde, born 1506 in Denmark; father Scot, mother Gypsy

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  • #31
    "Most of them are Scots, Jutes, Norsemen and even Swedes"

    I have upgraded from the 67 level to the 111 level. It completely changed the probabilities of sharing a common ancestor with men named Gordon within “the last 16 and 24 generations”.

    The ftdnaTiP calculator gave - I first thought - a credible estimate of "time to most recent common ancestors" on both the 37 and 67 level, where I based the credibility on a comparison with a letter from king James IV of Scotland in 1505 to his uncle king Hans of Denmark.

    But TMRCA of 10 out of 11 ftdna-matches with the Gordons on the 67 level are now being estimated to be much older after this new comparison on the 111 level. We match 60/67 and 61/67 and now ca. 94/111.

    The 11th match, with Peterson, shows that the 67 level estimate was credible, especially after papers revealed that we have a common ancestor, Jens Madsen Yde, born 1706. We match 64/67 and 107/111.

    In five different examples you can see how much percentages can change from 67 to 111 markers.

    Mr. A. Gordon and Yde at 67-level
    Generations: and probability
    16: 76,91%
    24: 97,36%
    Mr. A. Gordon and Yde at 111-level
    16: 4,75%
    24: 45,07%
    = = =
    Mr. B. Gordon and Yde on 67 markers
    16: 76,91%
    24: 97,36%
    Mr. B. Gordon and Yde on 111 markers
    16: 2,65%
    24: 35,40%
    = = =
    Mr. C. Gordon and Yde at the 67-level
    16: 61,44%
    24: 93,35%
    Mr. C. Gordon and Yde at the 111-level.
    16: 4,11%
    24: 41,97%
    = = =
    Mr. D. Gordon and Yde at 67-level
    16: 61,44%
    24: 93,35%
    Mr. D. Gordon and Yde at 111-level
    16: 2,26%
    24: 32,47%
    = = =
    Mr. Peterson and Yde on 67 markers
    16: 97,86%
    24: 99,92%
    Mr. Peterson and Yde on 111 markers
    4: 24,00%
    8: 75,01%
    12: 95,22%
    16: 99,33%
    20: 99,92%
    24: 99,99%
    = = =

    My conclusion is still that the father and mother of Yde, born 1506 in Denmark, was a man in Scotland and that the mother belonged to a group of gypsies/rowmais who sailed across the North Sea - a distance longer than from Houston to Yucatan or from San Diego to San Francisco.

    Further, that an ancestor of the man in Scotland once came from Normandy, France. Did some of his ancestors in person know Rollo (ca. 860-932)? Did the ancestor before that sail down from Norway via Orkney Islands to Normandy? Or did Rollo and his accompaniers - as Guillaume/William de Jumièges, b. ca 1000, tells - come from Danish town of Fakse on Sealand? And was Rollo on Sealand then a descendant of Fornjot, King of Gotland, Kvenland and Finland?

    The Romani on their side later arrived in Finland – which at that time was part of Sweden – in 1512. In 1573 Archbishop Laurentius Petri questioned the Egyptian origins and morals of these ‘Tatars’: ‘They claim to come from Egypt Minor, which is nothing but a lie, as they have never been to Egypt. Most of them are Scots, Jutes, Norsemen and even Swedes who have joined their numbers so that they may exercise such accursed arbitrariness.’ (From "Suomen romanien historia") So maybe they shortly after 1506 took a boat from Jutland to Norway?


    • #32
      I1-Z140, A2087

      This year I ended up taking the BigY test + YFull.

      The result cancelled my idea of a connection between Gordons and me within the time of surnames known to be in use. Our MRCA namely lived around 3000 years ago, the experts tell. It has been difficult for me to understand that STR could be that much wrong. At this moment I have 23 matches on the Y67-level of which 14 are Gordons, but I understand these 61/67 and 60/67 results are without value in my case.

      I have two matches 65/67 and 64/67 with ancestors near the Limfjord, North Jutland. Mr. "64/67" has also taken a BigY and our common ancestor Jens Madsen Yde, born 1706, is now on YFull's tree, I1-Z140, A2087.

      I have not changed my view on a forefather from Scotland, and maybe the mother of the first Yde born in Denmark in 1506 also was Scottish.

      Based on all available information my conclusion as of sept. 2017 is, that "my" y-dna-molecules spent a long time by the Atlantic coast of Norway and in the 1st century AD went from the area around the Trondheim Fjord to East Sweden. Later they sailed to Hedeby on the south of the Jutland peninsula and further on to Normandy, France. A thousand years ago they moved to England/Scotland and in July 1505 sailed from Edinburgh to Aalborg, Limfjorden, Denmark, and then went west.

      The latest tour based on this:
      A: In my family the old ones said that the first Yde was born, left and "ydet" (english Given) on Vilsund Strand by the Limfjord, Denmark, when a group of gypsies did encamp.
      B: In July 1505 the Scottish king James IV Stewart wrote to his mother's brother in Denmark, king Hans, born in Aalborg, Limfjorden, if he would be so kind to take care of a group of gypsies arriving under the leadership of a lord from Little Egypt, Anthony Gagino.
      C: In 1512 a group with a leader named "count Antony" arrived to Stockholm, Sweden, where they had never seen such people before.
      D: Swedish archbishop Petri wrote in 1573 that these "tatars" never saw Egypt but were mostly "skottar, jutar, baggar och än svenskar" (people from Scotland, Jutland with Limfjorden, Norway - baggar are horses - and even from Sweden).
      E: Tests of my y-dna show a remarkable big number of matches with men with ancestors from Scotland. Many Scottish clans origin is Normandy, France, and came to Scotland a thousand years ago as descendants of Vikings.


      • #33
        Wouldn't it make more sense for your patrilineal ancestors to have simply originated in Denmark as opposed to Scotland? I-Z140 is fairly common in Denmark. Plus I-A2094 (upstream of I-A2087) is found in Sweden.

        What is your TMRCA like with these Scottish families?
        Last edited by spruithean; 5 October 2017, 02:25 PM.


        • #34
          Gulf of Bothnia seems to have been closely linked to the British Isles

          I base the work on all things that can be used in the search of family who lived centuries ago. Written sources like sagas, carbon-14, dendrochronology, iron age pottery and so on - and more recently DNA.

          I think the written sources alone explains that my dna-molecules in July 1505 sailed on a boat from Scotland to Denmark.

          A few hundred years before the year 1505 they came to Scotland from Normandy - or maybe Flanders?

          Where did this part of the Vikings or Angles live before settling in Normandy by the river Seine or other land near the Channel?

          I think the arrow points back to east Sweden, places where king Fornjót is said to have ruled.

          DNA-experts said:
          - The branch that became Gordon/Douglas went its separate way some 2900 years ago. Mr Yde, on the other hand is positive for the S12289 and the next SNP down the line, S1990. Thus, his line went its separate way some 2000 years ago. There is no way he is a Gordon. Based on STR markers, it looked like the Parrotts and Gordons went their separate ways 900 years ago, but SNPs makes it clear that it was more like 2000 years ago, said Wayne Parrott, quoted by Jim Gordon.

          - Mr. Peterson and Yde, at last, I found you a match. Looks like your Big-Y match comes from Sweden. Peterson and Yde form a new "I1-Z2535/S1953+ [04dgpy] A2094+ A2108+ A2084+ Branch". Your new terminal SNP is I-A2084. The Gulf of Bothnia seems to have been closely linked to the British Isles, said William Hartley, Jan-Feb. 2017.

          And before that men with this signature lived in or near Trondheim, Norway, in the first century AD, I claim.


          • #35
            Having done my fair share of Roma / Romanichal genealogical and DNA research myself, I can attest that Yde is correct in presuming the Gordon surname of Scotland does have some Romancihal admixture in their family tree.

            I have seen the Gordon surname being named as a Scottish Egyptian / Gypsy in various account.

            I personally do not know of any male of the Gordon surname carrying Y Haplogroup H-M82 and if there were such a Gordon male carrying M82, that would be the key clue to him being of Romanichal ancestry for sure.

            Here is a good clue to look for, for you whom have done the Family Finder or similar autosomal DNA test. In your autosomal matches, look for men whom you are a match with whom do carry H-M82 and or females whom carry mt Haplo M5a1b* as both are South Asian in origin and either of those 2 Haplogroups being found in your autosomal matches, could very well be a great clue to you having Roma / Romanichal ties in your family tree.

            On average, around 50% of the Roma / Romany male population is known to carry H-M82 and the females carry around 20% to 30% M5a1b*. So finding any matches to either male or female Haplogroups could be the Roma / Romany clues you are seeking.

            I am of Romanichal ancestry, I am in Y Haplogroup H-M82 and thanks to my Big Y upgrade, I was just moved in to a deeper subclade of M82, I am now placed in a newly identified
            H-SK1225 which is downstream of M82.