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  • #61
    Originally posted by LindaT View Post
    vinnie,

    Here's another one where they directly measured the mutation rate on the y chromosome: http://www.nature.com/news/2009/0908....2009.864.html.

    It sounds more like research on mutation rates are lending support to the Darwinian model of evolution than assumptions about the Darwinian model being used to derive mutation rates.
    Thanks much, Linda. I'll give these two sites a read.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by vinnie View Post
      I'm really hoping we can keep this to the science side of things, but I have to respond. Please start adding up the numbers (millions upon millions) of people who have been murdered/persecuted by atheistic/secularist/Marxist movements and regimes including the following: the French Revolution, the Soviet Union, Red China, Khmer Rouge, Vietcong, North Korea, Castro, etc. As for Hitler, it's true that he was baptized Roman Catholic, but there's absolutely no evidence that he was ever a practicing Catholic, but instead turned to Occultism, and consequently was responsible for the murder of thousands of Christians of all stripes who opposed him including clergy, members of religious orders, and lay people.
      The original post involves creationism and the bible. It's not possible to keep this conversation "to the science side"...

      Also, I agree, humans are a murderous bunch....they look for any reason to kill, or, no reason at all. The excuse list includes (but is not limited to) politics, color, race, religion, gender, location, time and place. Also, money, minerals, resources, property, women and WATER. (My cousin, Dr. Schuhmann, recently did a TED talk about the politics of water. Very interesting.)

      What makes religion stand out in my mind is the fact that religion is supposed to put a stop to all the excuses used for humans to kill each other. It is supposed to elevate us to a higher level, a level closer to "god". Apparently, in many cases, it has failed miserably and instead, has been used as an instrument of murder.

      And by the way.....I am a very spiritual person. I don't follow any particular religion, but I do pray to Goddess and venerate my ancestors.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by girlperson1 View Post
        The original post involves creationism and the bible. It's not possible to keep this conversation "to the science side"...

        Also, I agree, humans are a murderous bunch....they look for any reason to kill, or, no reason at all. The excuse list includes (but is not limited to) politics, color, race, religion, gender, location, time and place. Also, money, minerals, resources, property, women and WATER. (My cousin, Dr. Schuhmann, recently did a TED talk about the politics of water. Very interesting.)

        What makes religion stand out in my mind is the fact that religion is supposed to put a stop to all the excuses used for humans to kill each other. It is supposed to elevate us to a higher level, a level closer to "god". Apparently, in many cases, it has failed miserably and instead, has been used as an instrument of murder.

        And by the way.....I am a very spiritual person. I don't follow any particular religion, but I do pray to Goddess and venerate my ancestors.

        It's not the Bibles fault that people can be wackos. The fault is narrow minded sick individuals, certainly not on a Jewish texts that people with no cultral, ethnical, historical context twist into their own beliefs.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
          It's not the Bibles fault that people can be wackos. The fault is narrow minded sick individuals, certainly not on a Jewish texts that people with no cultral, ethnical, historical context twist into their own beliefs.
          Read Deuteronomy and Leviticus, you'll discover plenty of reasons for wacko, narrow minded sick individuals to commit murder in the name of god.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by girlperson1 View Post
            Read Deuteronomy and Leviticus, you'll discover plenty of reasons for wacko, narrow minded sick individuals to commit murder in the name of god.
            I don't need to read it. Ive studied it under qualified individuals who can speak on the matter. People who don't understand cultral context of the Torah do such things.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
              I don't need to read it. Ive studied it under qualified individuals who can speak on the matter. People who don't understand cultral context of the Torah do such things.
              Then you know well the history of the Torah and how it's contents have been used by the Jews and other and how those who still take the bible literally still use it. The word "abomination" appears about 47 times in the old testament and about 5 times in the new testament. That's a lot of stones to be thrown.

              As for cultural context, yes, we have to read the bible with an eye toward how life was 7,000 years ago. As I originally stated, the bible is filled with history AND parables. But, there are those who still take it and other "holy books" literally and use them as excuses for the unspeakable...

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              • #67
                Originally posted by girlperson1 View Post
                Then you know well the history of the Torah and how it's contents have been used by the Jews and other and how those who still take the bible literally still use it. The word "abomination" appears about 47 times in the old testament and about 5 times in the new testament. That's a lot of stones to be thrown.

                As for cultural context, yes, we have to read the bible with an eye toward how life was 7,000 years ago. As I originally stated, the bible is filled with history AND parables. But, there are those who still take it and other "holy books" literally and use them as excuses for the unspeakable...
                You are trying to tie the Culture of the Hebrew texts to today and it doesn't work. More people have died for economical, and political reasons then anything else. If you know that they are still taking things literally, who's fault is it? The text or the people? The people not understanding the context of the text. You basically are agreeing with there actions if you blame the text.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                  You are trying to tie the Culture of the Hebrew texts to today and it doesn't work. More people have died for economical, and political reasons then anything else. If you know that they are still taking things literally, who's fault is it? The text or the people? The people not understanding the context of the text. You basically are agreeing with there actions if you blame the text.
                  In your mind it doesn't work, in my mind it doesn't work. In the mind of a nut job, tying the culture of ancient hebrew text to today does work, and it apparently works well for the nut job. My entire point is that people will find any reason if they look hard enough, for anything they want. People are not just setting out on their own to read ancient text, they are being instructed by ministers and whoever. The interpretation as literal is and has always been a problem, a BIG one.

                  I believe the Talmud solved this problem for the hebrews but there are those who ONLY read the bible and ONLY accept the bible as the literal word of god. These persons won't go near the Talmud, no matter how much interesting wisdom it may have to share.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by girlperson1 View Post
                    In your mind it doesn't work, in my mind it doesn't work. In the mind of a nut job, tying the culture of ancient hebrew text to today does work, and it apparently works well for the nut job. My entire point is that people will find any reason if they look hard enough, for anything they want. People are not just setting out on their own to read ancient text, they are being instructed by ministers and whoever. The interpretation as literal is and has always been a problem, a BIG one.

                    I believe the Talmud solved this problem for the hebrews but there are those who ONLY read the bible and ONLY accept the bible as the literal word of god. These persons won't go near the Talmud, no matter how much interesting wisdom it may have to share.
                    The Talmud was not meant for anyone else besides the Hebrew people. Once again because people would take it out of context just like they do of the entire Tanakh. Nothing that is being discussed in this thread is relevant to the Topic that was started by Ben.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                      The Talmud was not meant for anyone else besides the Hebrew people. Once again because people would take it out of context just like they do of the entire Tanakh. Nothing that is being discussed in this thread is relevant to the Topic that was started by Ben.
                      The Talmud was not meant for anyone else besides the Hebrew people. Exactly, it explains why the fundamentalist ONLY believes in the BIBLE and nothing else and explains why the fundamentalist will NEVER believe evolution or anything else that's not in the BIBLE. They believe the literal translation of the BIBLE.

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                      • #71
                        What would happen

                        Exactly what did you think would happen when Ben brought up this subject?
                        This is the only comment I have. This thread has progressed just as I thought it would.

                        ENOUGH ALL READY. It's time to put his subject to rest. You are not going to change their minds. Ooh, sorry, I did make a comment.

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                        • #72
                          As of now, there have been 1,541 views of this thread, and unless I misunderstood Ben's original post, it's really about mutation rates. So while I thank Linda for the web links she provided, I'm still waiting for someone who can speak with authority on the topic to answer my question, and ultimately Ben's.

                          P.S. When I come across forum threads I don't like, I just don't read them.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by vinnie View Post
                            As of now, there have been 1,541 views of this thread, and unless I misunderstood Ben's original post, it's really about mutation rates. So while I thank Linda for the web links she provided, I'm still waiting for someone who can speak with authority on the topic to answer my question, and ultimately Ben's.

                            P.S. When I come across forum threads I don't like, I just don't read them.
                            maybe that many people are reading this thread because you brought up Italian food Thats what got my attention

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                              maybe that many people are reading this thread because you brought up Italian food Thats what got my attention
                              If you havent tried pepper and egg sandwiches, I highly suggest it. It's prob my fav Italiano food. Well I like all Italian food. Lol

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Taz85 View Post
                                If you havent tried pepper and egg sandwiches, I highly suggest it. It's prob my fav Italiano food. Well I like all Italian food. Lol
                                My mind was on zeppolies!! Now if we want to get biblical and stay on topic we should discuss eggplant history http://www.momentmag.com/Exclusive/c...ftheTable.html

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