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  • Scots Irish ?

    Could anyone help me understand this concept a bit better. ?
    Are Scots/Irish people of Scottish decent that lived in Ireland or Irish living in Scotland?
    Are they an admixture who might identify themselves as either Irish or Scottish ?
    My great grandfather identified himself as Scottish but his DNA (or rather my mothers- his grandchild) suggests he was Irish. This is implied both from population finder tests and from the nationaility of her many matches.
    I want to try to focus my research by identifying a country. My family oral tradition says his family moved from Ireland to Scotland and returned to Ireland shortly before they came to the new world. I just can’t understand why at the age of ten would he identify himself as Scottish if his family was Irish. The year would be 1847 or so.
    Note. They did not immigrate to a place like New York city or Boston were it may have been unpopular to call yourself Irish. In Canada in 1847 I do not believe there was anything to be gained by claiming origins from one country over the other.(correct me if I am wrong)

  • #2
    Very significant migrations in both directions:

    - From Scotland to Ireland during the highland clearances and from the border area around the time of the union of England & Scotland
    - From Ireland to Scotland and England during the potato famine

    Lynda

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    • #3
      Thank You.
      I guess what I am trying to do is reconcile family oral history with DNA testing. Why would a ten year old boy claim to be Scottish if his family was from Ireland and moved to Scotland ?. Would not a Irish family maintain their Irish identify and pass that to their son even if they lived in Scotland?
      That’s why the idea for Scott Irish crossed my mind. If they were Irish by DNA but grew up in Irish/Scottish section in Ireland might they not identify with Scotland after moving there, and pass that tradition to their son.
      So is this possible?

      By the way I belive this same man was a victim of the Irish famine. Both his parents i belive were lost on the coffin ships arriving in Canada,which is how he lost them both.

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      • #4
        Take a look at the potato famine on wikipedia. Under the heading Emigration it says that the Canadian government introduces harsh restrictions on Irish immigration around 1847. Could have impacted on how they described themselves.

        Lynda

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        • #5
          The Scot Irish were Scots who were force to move from Scotland to Ireland not Irish who moved to Scotland. There was some immigration back and forth but the term is to identify those Scots that were placed in Northern Ireland. The British were willing to let the Scots do their fighting for them in Ireland and else where. The Scot stayed sometimes only a few generation and some married into Irish families before moving to the new world. A lot of Scotch Irish lived on the out side of civilization in the new world again put there because of their fighting skills and willingness to fight.
          Last edited by EdwardRHill; 14 May 2012, 05:25 PM.

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          • #6
            Scotch-I·rish

            Source:American Heritage Dictionary

            (skŏch'ī'rĭsh)
            n. In both senses also called Scots-Irish.

            The people of Scotland who settled in northern Ireland or their descendants, especially those who emigrated to North America. See Usage Note at Scottish.
            The variety of Scots spoken by the Scotch-Irish.

            adj.
            Of or relating to the Scotch-Irish or their variety of Scots.

            Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/ulster-scots#ixzz1usyZw0mg

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            • #7
              Under the heading Emigration it says that the Canadian government introduces harsh restrictions on Irish immigration around 1847. Could have impacted on how they described themselves.
              Well that is a strong possibility. It just seems he would have shared that information with his daughters. But who knows? His daughter,my grand mother even described herself as Scottish while doing a border crossing into the US.
              Very interesting information on the Scots/Irish. This man will have to remain a mystery for a while. He just seems to have appeared out of no where. On the other hand the records of the Irish orphans in Canada will likely never be fully known.

              Thanks everyone.

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              • #8
                Another term for the Scots Irish is Ulster Scot. It simply describes that part of the Scottish population, beginning in the 1600s, who moved to Ulster (ie, Northern Ireland). Most were Presbyterian.

                A few decades into the 1700s, at the encouragement of the Pennsylvania proprietors, a large number of Ulster Scots moved to Pennsylvania & from there down the Valley of Virginia into Augusta Co., VA & points beyond. In many Appalachian places south of Virginia, the Ulster Scots represent the first wave of settlement.

                My ancestry is a little over 25% Ulster Scot or Scots Irish.

                Timothy Peterman

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                • #9
                  Also when the Scots-Irish originally settled here they were referred to as Irish by the Quakers since they came from Ireland

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Red Rover View Post
                    Also when the Scots-Irish originally settled here they were referred to as Irish by the Quakers since they came from Ireland
                    Thats understandable they would not know the history of those people besides where they came from.

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                    • #11
                      My mother was half Scots-Irish. Her father was born in Belfast, Co. Down, Ireland and was of both Scots and native Irish ancestry. His Erskine (of Mar) family was given tracts of land in Co. Tyrone in the early 1600s. While in Ireland, the Erskines married with Norman Irish (Butler), native Irish (Curran) and other Scots (McDonald), among others.

                      My Dad was 100% native Irish, so I just tell people I'm 3/4 Irish and 1/4 French-Canadian. It's easier that way...

                      Thanks, Miles Kehoe

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                      • #12
                        I guess the real question I had was not so much what other people believed them to be but rather what they considered themselves to be.
                        While posting my question about my mothers DNA suggesting Irish I noticed for the first time that in my population finder , stuck between Spanish and French, is Orkney. Interesting. However I am not a big believer in population finder tests without supporting evidence. In my mothers case it was the reported irish nationally of at least a quarter of her matches on an autosomal test. We are almost entirely French with roots in canada since 1650 or so.

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                        • #13
                          My Mom and all of her family refered to themselves as Irish, not Scots-Irish. I only put Scots-Irish down as a description because it helps people in this genetic-genealogy stuff.

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                          • #14
                            My Mom and all of her family referred to themselves as Irish, not Scots-Irish
                            Yes a few days ago when I googled Scots Irish it said Americans of that descent
                            might choose to identify themselves as either Scot or Irish

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by EdwardRHill View Post
                              Source:American Heritage Dictionary

                              (skŏch'ī'rĭsh)
                              n. In both senses also called Scots-Irish.

                              The people of Scotland who settled in northern Ireland or their descendants, especially those who emigrated to North America. See Usage Note at Scottish.
                              The variety of Scots spoken by the Scotch-Irish.

                              adj.
                              Of or relating to the Scotch-Irish or their variety of Scots.

                              Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/ulster-scots#ixzz1usyZw0mg
                              I have Scotch Irish Ancestry in my tree here's a story about one of them.

                              Ephraim McDowell, c 1672-1775, married Margaret Irvine. Ephraim ancestors came from Galloway, Scotland, having moved to Ulster in the north of Ireland, early in the 1600’s. In 1689, as a lad of 17, he was caught up in the hellish siege of Londonderry. Surrounded by a vengeful Irish army led by trained military officers loyal to the deposed King James II, the brave Scotch-Irish villagers repelled attack after attack. The Ulstermen held out for three months, suffering from fever, cholera and famine, until the Royal Navy sent in a frigate and two supply ships and broke the siege. He joined the army of William III and fought at Boyne River in 1690.

                              When he and Margaret were married, the Church of England forbade them a Presbyterian service. In this bleak setting, they raised a family of four children: 1. John, 1706-1742, who married Magdalene Woods, 2 Mary Elizabeth, 1707-1809, who married James Greenlee, 3. James, 0000-1772, who married Elizabeth, and 4. Margaret, dates unknown, who married James Mitchell. When his children grew to maturity, the Crown would not allow them to hold responsible position in their own local government and made owning title to land nearly impossible.

                              In 1729, Ephraim and his family escaped the British tyranny and immigrated to America on ‘the good ship, George and Anne “, settling in Pennsylvania. The Scot-Irish settlers soon wore out their welcome with the Quakers. In 1737, at the age of 65, Ephraim again uprooted his clan. They moved down the Wilderness Trail to find new opportunities on the frontiers of Virginia. Along the way, they met Benjamin Borden, who persuaded them to settle on his land grant. The McDowell’s located on Timber Ridge, then called “Timber Grove”, being “attracted by the forest trees on the ridge, which were scarce in the region”.

                              In 1742, the men at Borden’s Grant formed a militia company and elected Ephraim’s son, john, their first captain. Shortly thereafter, the militia fought an Onondaga raiding party and Capt. John McDowell and seven of his men were killed. This first hostile encounter with the Indians was called the “Balcony Falls Massacre” which ignited a war that lasted until peace was restored two years later, by the treaty of Lancaster.

                              Ephraim lived to witness the Wilderness Trail become a busy wagon road, the settlement grow into a community with a church and school, and his Grandson became a delegate to the Virginia House of Burgesses and a judge in Augusta County Court. When he died at age 104, it is said “He had accumulated a large estate and was highly regarded by all for his intelligence, usefulness and probity. (He) wielded a singular and beneficent influence among the intrepid and independent by whom he was surrounded, retaining all of his faculties to the last. “He lived many years- and was sufficiently active to make for himself a place in the annals of pioneer epoch

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