Just the facts

[EdwardRHill]

I was making some educated statements about the challenges to the OP regarding his concerns. I was not seeking advice regarding my own project, that is going to require more elbow grease on my part!

OH you directed them to me it probably would have been better to direct them to him.

[Zaru]

Since I'm not a PA I might be the wrong person to go to. Have you contacted other PA's and gotten their idea's?

I was making some educated statements about the challenges to the OP regarding his concerns. I was not seeking advice regarding my own project, that is going to require more elbow grease on my part!

[EdwardRHill]

I wrote baseline "haplotype"-not "haplogroup". We are essentially broken into two separate haplogroups- I1a and R1b in the project. The baseline haplotype would be the one that the immigrant ancestor has. Of course, 20 people claim him, but the haplotypes are all over the place so figuring out what the Immigrant Ancestor's haplotype is has been a great challenge.

Since I'm not a PA I might be the wrong person to go to. Have you contacted other PA's and gotten their idea's?

[Zaru]

I don't know how many people are in your group or what they're predicted Haplogroup are. When you say base Haplogroup do you mean one of the 20 haplogroups A through T?

I'm going to say thats what you mean and if they are predicted to be in different base Haplogroups than they are not a recent ancestry match. So I don't know why that would be of interest to you.

Also did you miss type your Haplogroup information?

I wrote baseline "haplotype"-not "haplogroup". We are essentially broken into two separate haplogroups- I1a and R1b in the project. The baseline haplotype would be the one that the immigrant ancestor has. Of course, 20 people claim him, but the haplotypes are all over the place so figuring out what the Immigrant Ancestor's haplotype is has been a great challenge.

[EdwardRHill]

In a best case scenario that's how it would work, however, in the practical world it's not what works best in this particular case. Deep clade testing only works for deep ancestry relationships. STR is the best determinate for recent ancestry. My group holds a rare surname so it is not going to approach the numbers of the Hill Clan. It's very difficult to get new members to join, and many of them do not know their ancestry beyond three generations. Fortunately, if you are a "St. John" we have only been able to detect three viable and distinct lineages.

I don't know how many people are in your group or what they're predicted Haplogroup are. When you say base Haplogroup do you mean one of the 20 haplogroups A through T?

I'm going to say thats what you mean and if they are predicted to be in different base Haplogroups than they are not a recent ancestry match. So I don't know why that would be of interest to you.

Also did you miss type your Haplogroup information?

[mixedkid]

the automomal DNA is more important in genealogy

I believe there are more inaccurate family trees floating around out there on the internet than accurate family trees. I have been tested at 37 markers, My predicted haplogroup is I2b1, and i have very few concrete facts to start a family tree on my paternal side. I'm fairly certain of my father and grandfather but not much past that. What is the best way to get started ? Not using speculation and guess work. Just facts. How much can DNA testing really do ?

From what I can tell by your original post, you have only taken the Y DNA test. That in itself does not tell you much about your family tree. It only tells you what Y DNA haplogroup males in your direct paternal line have -- and gives you some indication about where that halplogroup originated. That's very little information. As an example: The Y DNA test you took only tells you a very small piece of information about one of your eight great-grandparents. It tells you absolutely nothing about your other seven great-grandparents.

Most of your DNA is not Y DNA (from your direct paternal line) or mitochondrial DNA (from your direct maternal line) but automosomal DNA. The FamilyFinder test looks at the automsomal DNA and over time, gives you far more of an indication of your many, many ancestral families.

[Zaru]

I will have to go with the information I get from those who know better than me about mutation rate, I like it to be as simple as I can. Second guessing other who know more than me is not a good idea. Unless I have a lab, education, money, and the interest to see if my theory is correct or not I'll just avoid wondering if others are right or wrong when it comes to something I don't know enough about.

I'm not a PA and don't want to be, but I was the PA in your group I would see if I could get some if not all in a small group to do the Deep Clade test and see if that will give me a base Haplogroup. The Hill group has close to 500 and there is more than one Haplogroup. Also my mothers surname group allows everyone to join male female as long as you say you have a connection to that name. The PA there has the same problem you have people joined and are willing to take, but not share. So if I was to be a PA I would make it so you have to prove your connection and if they don't want to they can join another group or start their own.

In a best case scenario that's how it would work, however, in the practical world it's not what works best in this particular case. Deep clade testing only works for deep ancestry relationships. STR is the best determinate for recent ancestry. My group holds a rare surname so it is not going to approach the numbers of the Hill Clan. It's very difficult to get new members to join, and many of them do not know their ancestry beyond three generations. Fortunately, if you are a "St. John" we have only been able to detect three viable and distinct lineages.

[EdwardRHill]

I am not entirely convinced that the mutation rates are correct though. I am PA for a project where no common haplotype has emerged. Although they all look similar with regards to clustering, there is enough of a GD, that according to the accepted explanation, no relationship can exist within a the 400 year range back to the shared immigrant ancestor.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you have a group like mine, finding the baseline haplotype is a challenge. My group is small enough where I have reached out for trees and have had about a 30% success rate in getting them. Comparing and contrasting common lines is key to finding out where the hiccups might lie. In the case of paternal lineage, the hiccup can only occur with either the mother, or an adoption. The father having affair with another woman will still have his Y-DNA. So look for the clues that are associated with the mother.

I will have to go with the information I get from those who know better than me about mutation rate, I like it to be as simple as I can. Second guessing other who know more than me is not a good idea. Unless I have a lab, education, money, and the interest to see if my theory is correct or not I'll just avoid wondering if others are right or wrong when it comes to something I don't know enough about.

I'm not a PA and don't want to be, but I was the PA in your group I would see if I could get some if not all in a small group to do the Deep Clade test and see if that will give me a base Haplogroup. The Hill group has close to 500 and there is more than one Haplogroup. Also my mothers surname group allows everyone to join male female as long as you say you have a connection to that name. The PA there has the same problem you have people joined and are willing to take, but not share. So if I was to be a PA I would make it so you have to prove your connection and if they don't want to they can join another group or start their own.

[Zaru]

Y-DNA is pasted down from father to son over the generation with little to no change. So the test can identify the line your from and give you a idea to which generation you could share a Common Ancestor with your matches.

That along with the information he probably has from your matches makes it possible to say your from that line. You just have to connect the dots. You have points A, B, and he gave you F you just have to fell in the blanks.

I am not entirely convinced that the mutation rates are correct though. I am PA for a project where no common haplotype has emerged. Although they all look similar with regards to clustering, there is enough of a GD, that according to the accepted explanation, no relationship can exist within a the 400 year range back to the shared immigrant ancestor.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you have a group like mine, finding the baseline haplotype is a challenge. My group is small enough where I have reached out for trees and have had about a 30% success rate in getting them. Comparing and contrasting common lines is key to finding out where the hiccups might lie. In the case of paternal lineage, the hiccup can only occur with either the mother, or an adoption. The father having affair with another woman will still have his Y-DNA. So look for the clues that are associated with the mother.

[EdwardRHill]

I match 2 people on 37 of 37 markers and 6 people on 36 of 37 markers. The project coordinator says he is certain without a doubt of the ancestors i am descended from from Pennsylvania in 1682 based only on my dna. Is this possible ? The project has 98 members total. I only know for certain back 2 generations but he says there is no doubt whatsoever about my lineage. How is this possible ?

Y-DNA is pasted down from father to son over the generation with little to no change. So the test can identify the line your from and give you a idea to which generation you could share a Common Ancestor with your matches.

That along with the information he probably has from your matches makes it possible to say your from that line. You just have to connect the dots. You have points A, B, and he gave you F you just have to fell in the blanks.

[507]

I match 2 people on 37 of 37 markers and 6 people on 36 of 37 markers. The project coordinator says he is certain without a doubt of the ancestors i am descended from from Pennsylvania in 1682 based only on my dna. Is this possible ? The project has 98 members total. I only know for certain back 2 generations but he says there is no doubt whatsoever about my lineage. How is this possible ?

[EdwardRHill]

I like using Ancestry but your right about the tree's. When I first got my results from the Y-DNA test I found out how bad it is. I matched up with Lee's that a different surname than mine. But i had to get started some how and I started looking at tree's with Lee's in it that were in the area of interest.

I found out that 95% of all tree's with Lee's in it had made a connection to the Robert E Lee, Richard Lee line from Virginia, I kid you not. But the trick is to look at tree's that someone has put some effort into. Tree's that have some effort put into them can be a gold mines.

[sspeters41]

I think we all agree that there are a great number of errors out there. Some are typos, I have made them and I hate it when I do.

What really frustrates me, is when there are errors in fairly recent genealogies and you e-mail the individuals about the errors and give them documention that shows them they have errors and they still will not correct their databases.

When it is brought to my attention that someone disagrees with my information, I will confirm the information and if my information is incorrect, I will correct and thank the person who brought the error to my attention.

I always appreciate corrections and additions to my family trees.

[WCoaster]

Mostly its just common sense and judgement calls. I'm slowly learning that all source material is likely to have some kind of error either by accident or intent. You have to take the body of evidence and make your best guess based on what you have.

Agreed! Many trees are inaccurate and/or unsourced, but quite a few provide at least some notes and citations - enough that you can do your own follow-up research.

I like Rootsweb’s WorldConnect trees because they’re so easy to use. The trees are well-organized and free of clutter. There’s an alphabetical index of names you can search, pedigree and descendancy views, etc.

Find the mini-trees on Family Finder helpful, too. They provide a context for the names, and I think most people try to make their trees as accurate as possible.

[Taz85]

Census records are filled with errors ( spelling of first names and surnames, year of birth, year of immigration). Ive seen errors in all of them. When your going farther back, you are to find errors and there could be alot of guesswork..