Just the facts

[katerennie4]

So if both me and the other person took the family finder test then FTDNA could tell us for certain that we share a great grandparent ?

If you share 2 great-grandparents, the chance of them detecting the relationship is over 99%. If you share 2 great-great grandparents the chance of them detecting the relationship is about 90%. If you just share 1 great-grandparent, the % is probably about a 95% chance Family Finder will detect the relationship. Not foolproof, but very good odds.

[507]

Autosomal tests find all 2nd cousins and > 90% of 3rd cousins. Family Finder would do that. Half second and half third cousins of course would share less DNA and the prob of finding them would go down so just need to keep that in mind if they're half not full.

So if both me and the other person took the family finder test then FTDNA could tell us for certain that we share a great grandparent ?

[katerennie4]

I agree about the paper trail. The thing that makes it so difficult is that names are so common. There are likely 50 people with my grandfathers name in my state alone, not counting the whole US. But i feel like he is a good starting point since i am fairly confident he was my grandfather. If i suspected someone to be my second or third cousin , is there a test that could prove that ?

Autosomal tests find all 2nd cousins and > 90% of 3rd cousins. Family Finder would do that. Half second and half third cousins of course would share less DNA and the prob of finding them would go down so just need to keep that in mind if they're half not full.

[507]

I agree about the paper trail. The thing that makes it so difficult is that names are so common. There are likely 50 people with my grandfathers name in my state alone, not counting the whole US. But i feel like he is a good starting point since i am fairly confident he was my grandfather. If i suspected someone to be my second or third cousin , is there a test that could prove that ?

[Jim Barrett]

There's no doubt whatsoever that you belong in the project, and are descended from the Chester County, Pa., family represented in the project's Cluster 4.

The only question is whether you descend from the immigrant brother Thomas through his son Joseph, as ********* found most probable but by no means certain, or whether your descent is instead through another John in North Carolina, from the line of the immigrant brother Francis, which now appears more likely than it may have earlier, based on the value 19 you have at marker YCA-IIa, and which is characteristic of all known Francis descendants.

The problem is that the right ********* have not yet been tested to determine whether the marker change from 19 to 17 first occurred in Thomas himself, or didn't appear until his son Anthony, all of whose known ******** descendants carry it. If it was present in Thomas, then the Joseph to whom your line is now attributed would also have carried it. That would rule out descent of your "19" line from him--but we just don't know yet.

For further testing we need a ******** descended from either Thomas's sons Thomas (twin to Joseph) or William, or from a line more certainly descended from Joseph than yours is..

Sorry I can't be more definite at this point. I'm currently preparing an article on where we are for the Pennsylvania Genealogical Magazine, hoping it might inspire other ********* to be tested who can help put the questions to rest.

Okay, I'm beginning to understand. As I suggested before, maybe there was a difference in results that was making him place you where he has. If most of the group matches at 37 or 67 markers and only a few have the value of 19 for YCA-IIa then it is logical to assume your more recent ancestors are in the group with that value.

I don't think he is trying to get you to order anything. He is saying that more people from the lines need to be tested to be sure when/where this change occurred. This is a common method used in genetic genealogy. If you know of fourth or fifth cousins then they could be good additions to the project. From what you have told me you don't know these people.

If I were your admin I would suggest two things. Number 1, and the most important in my opinion, would be to work on your paper trail. Dig into census records. Depending on where your family was located look for birth and death records, look for obits, look for deeds, look for church records and look for estate records. Number 2 would be to upgrade to 67 markers. Watch for a sale and do the upgrade then. I believe April 20 is DNA Day. There might be a one day sale then. Go to your myFTDNA website and click on the button near the top right for ordering additional test. See what the upgrade would cost today and do it again on April 20 to see if the price has changed. Watch this forum. Any time there is a sale someone mentions it somewhere in the forum. Since I'm not your admin I'll suggest one other thing - give your admin a break - I don't think he/she is trying to mislead you or rip you off.

[507]

[QUOTE= quote removed [/QUOTE]



Im talking about on the YDNA project list and the emails they send back and forth. Not on this public forum.

[507]

There are several of my matches that are tested at 67 or 111 markers. But im only tested at 37. There are many last names in our project. There are even several last names in the cluster I am in.

[507]

Of these 7 matches, have they tested to 67 markers? If so you might want to upgrade to see if the match still holds up.



If the admin has taken advantage of the material provided by FTDNA it is easy for the admin to set up a public website and group the project members based on Haplogroup and/or other information. It provides a modal value for each group. If the project surname is your surname and since you do have matches with other project members I'm sure you do belong in the project. As I stated before you probably do share a common ancestor with other members of the group. I don't know how he can be certain you descend from one of three men and not some ancestor of theirs unless there is an unusual mutation that the group has that doesn't show up before these three brothers.



If you have said, I missed where your paternal line is from. With mentions of "immigrant brothers that came to Pennsylvania in 1682" you should be able to trace your line back from your grandfather using census records. We have census records taken every 10 years, 1890 missing, back to 1850 that list family members. Your "local" public library may have free access to these. Do a little research on your own. Go back as far as you can then contact the members you match. See if they can connect to the ancestor you find.

I have trouble understanding what the Admin means sometimes. I copied and pasted an email he sent me. I only removed our last name so as to remain private.


Hi *******

There's no doubt whatsoever that you belong in the project, and are descended from the Chester County, Pa., family represented in the project's Cluster 4.

The only question is whether you descend from the immigrant brother Thomas through his son Joseph, as ********* found most probable but by no means certain, or whether your descent is instead through another John in North Carolina, from the line of the immigrant brother Francis, which now appears more likely than it may have earlier, based on the value 19 you have at marker YCA-IIa, and which is characteristic of all known Francis descendants.

The problem is that the right ********* have not yet been tested to determine whether the marker change from 19 to 17 first occurred in Thomas himself, or didn't appear until his son Anthony, all of whose known ******** descendants carry it. If it was present in Thomas, then the Joseph to whom your line is now attributed would also have carried it. That would rule out descent of your "19" line from him--but we just don't know yet.

For further testing we need a ******** descended from either Thomas's sons Thomas (twin to Joseph) or William, or from a line more certainly descended from Joseph than yours is..

Sorry I can't be more definite at this point. I'm currently preparing an article on where we are for the Pennsylvania Genealogical Magazine, hoping it might inspire other ********* to be tested who can help put the questions to rest.

[Jim Barrett]

I also have 7 matches on 36 of 37 markers. And many many matches on 35 or 34 of 37 markers.

Of these 7 matches, have they tested to 67 markers? If so you might want to upgrade to see if the match still holds up.

The whole project has 98 people and he has us grouped into several clusters. There are about 20 people in my cluster. He said my results are the "modal value" for the whole cluster. He says that there is no doubt whatsoever that i belong on the project and also he is for certain that I am descended from one of three immigrant brothers that came to Pennsylvania in 1682.

If the admin has taken advantage of the material provided by FTDNA it is easy for the admin to set up a public website and group the project members based on Haplogroup and/or other information. It provides a modal value for each group. If the project surname is your surname and since you do have matches with other project members I'm sure you do belong in the project. As I stated before you probably do share a common ancestor with other members of the group. I don't know how he can be certain you descend from one of three men and not some ancestor of theirs unless there is an unusual mutation that the group has that doesn't show up before these three brothers.

Others in the project appear to have a solid family tree all the way back with documentation to back it up. I don't. I have a family tree but I'm not sure about several generations. I am certain of who my father is and he said he is certain of who his father was but that is big gap from 1908 back to 1682. How can our group administrator say all these things for certain ? If he is correct then that is great and I appreciate the work he done. If he's wrong then im just wasteing all my time.

If you have said, I missed where your paternal line is from. With mentions of "immigrant brothers that came to Pennsylvania in 1682" you should be able to trace your line back from your grandfather using census records. We have census records taken every 10 years, 1890 missing, back to 1850 that list family members. Your "local" public library may have free access to these. Do a little research on your own. Go back as far as you can then contact the members you match. See if they can connect to the ancestor you find.

[lgmayka]

I am certain of who my father is and he said he is certain of who his father was but that is big gap from 1908 back to 1682. How can our group administrator say all these things for certain ? If he is correct then that is great and I appreciate the work he done. If he's wrong then im just wasteing all my time.

I think it's something in between. He is giving his best opinion that you probably descend from a particular 17th-century person. Or in other words, if you were going to look for a paper trail back to the 17th century, here is where you should start your search.

[ragnar]

507, test more markers.

[1_mke]

Nothing is certain in life, its all about probabilities. Having said that, a 37 of 37 match is pretty strong evidence from what I've gathered.

[507]

I haven't been following all of your statements in this topic because the posts got so far off topic.

I assume you are referring to a FTDNA project and by coordinator you are referring to what FTDNA calls the "Group Administrator". I can assure you that FTDNA's Group Administrators are not paid by FTDNA. Unless the Group Administrator of the project has done a lot of genealogical research on YOUR line it is not possible to state from DNA tests provided by FTDNA that you descend from a particular person.

Again I'm assuming that you have taken a Y-DNA test. The results of these test will indicate that you and other men either do or do not share a common paternal ancestor. If you have a high level match (a low genetic distance on a high number of markers) you can be sure you share a common ancestor but the results will not tell you who that ancestor was.

Is the Group Administrator in question trying to get you to order other test and if so which test?

Yes i have taken the YDNA 37 test. I have two exact matches on 37 markers. I also have 7 matches on 36 of 37 markers. And many many matches on 35 or 34 of 37 markers. The whole project has 98 people and he has us grouped into several clusters. There are about 20 people in my cluster. He said my results are the "modal value" for the whole cluster. He says that there is no doubt whatsoever that i belong on the project and also he is for certain that I am descended from one of three immigrant brothers that came to Pennsylvania in 1682. Others in the project appear to have a solid family tree all the way back with documentation to back it up. I don't. I have a family tree but I'm not sure about several generations. I am certain of who my father is and he said he is certain of who his father was but that is big gap from 1908 back to 1682. How can our group administrator say all these things for certain ? If he is correct then that is great and I appreciate the work he done. If he's wrong then im just wasteing all my time.

[Jim Barrett]

I am having trouble believing the coordinator of this project. Now he says that not only do I belong in the project but he knows for certain who I am descended from back in the 1600's. How can he possibly know this from DNA ? Is project coordinator a paid position ? Is he blowing smoke trying to get a raise ? What do you guys think ?

I haven't been following all of your statements in this topic because the posts got so far off topic.

I assume you are referring to a FTDNA project and by coordinator you are referring to what FTDNA calls the "Group Administrator". I can assure you that FTDNA's Group Administrators are not paid by FTDNA. Unless the Group Administrator of the project has done a lot of genealogical research on YOUR line it is not possible to state from DNA tests provided by FTDNA that you descend from a particular person.

Again I'm assuming that you have taken a Y-DNA test. The results of these test will indicate that you and other men either do or do not share a common paternal ancestor. If you have a high level match (a low genetic distance on a high number of markers) you can be sure you share a common ancestor but the results will not tell you who that ancestor was.

Is the Group Administrator in question trying to get you to order other test and if so which test?

[507]

I am having trouble believing the coordinator of this project. Now he says that not only do I belong in the project but he knows for certain who I am descended from back in the 1600's. How can he possibly know this from DNA ? Is project coordinator a paid position ? Is he blowing smoke trying to get a raise ? What do you guys think ?