Just the facts

[EdwardRHill]

I am not entirely convinced that the mutation rates are correct though. I am PA for a project where no common haplotype has emerged. Although they all look similar with regards to clustering, there is enough of a GD, that according to the accepted explanation, no relationship can exist within a the 400 year range back to the shared immigrant ancestor.

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you have a group like mine, finding the baseline haplotype is a challenge. My group is small enough where I have reached out for trees and have had about a 30% success rate in getting them. Comparing and contrasting common lines is key to finding out where the hiccups might lie. In the case of paternal lineage, the hiccup can only occur with either the mother, or an adoption. The father having affair with another woman will still have his Y-DNA. So look for the clues that are associated with the mother.

I will have to go with the information I get from those who know better than me about mutation rate, I like it to be as simple as I can. Second guessing other who know more than me is not a good idea. Unless I have a lab, education, money, and the interest to see if my theory is correct or not I'll just avoid wondering if others are right or wrong when it comes to something I don't know enough about.

I'm not a PA and don't want to be, but I was the PA in your group I would see if I could get some if not all in a small group to do the Deep Clade test and see if that will give me a base Haplogroup. The Hill group has close to 500 and there is more than one Haplogroup. Also my mothers surname group allows everyone to join male female as long as you say you have a connection to that name. The PA there has the same problem you have people joined and are willing to take, but not share. So if I was to be a PA I would make it so you have to prove your connection and if they don't want to they can join another group or start their own.

[Zaru]

I will have to go with the information I get from those who know better than me about mutation rate, I like it to be as simple as I can. Second guessing other who know more than me is not a good idea. Unless I have a lab, education, money, and the interest to see if my theory is correct or not I'll just avoid wondering if others are right or wrong when it comes to something I don't know enough about.

I'm not a PA and don't want to be, but I was the PA in your group I would see if I could get some if not all in a small group to do the Deep Clade test and see if that will give me a base Haplogroup. The Hill group has close to 500 and there is more than one Haplogroup. Also my mothers surname group allows everyone to join male female as long as you say you have a connection to that name. The PA there has the same problem you have people joined and are willing to take, but not share. So if I was to be a PA I would make it so you have to prove your connection and if they don't want to they can join another group or start their own.

In a best case scenario that's how it would work, however, in the practical world it's not what works best in this particular case. Deep clade testing only works for deep ancestry relationships. STR is the best determinate for recent ancestry. My group holds a rare surname so it is not going to approach the numbers of the Hill Clan. It's very difficult to get new members to join, and many of them do not know their ancestry beyond three generations. Fortunately, if you are a "St. John" we have only been able to detect three viable and distinct lineages.

[mixedkid]

the automomal DNA is more important in genealogy

I believe there are more inaccurate family trees floating around out there on the internet than accurate family trees. I have been tested at 37 markers, My predicted haplogroup is I2b1, and i have very few concrete facts to start a family tree on my paternal side. I'm fairly certain of my father and grandfather but not much past that. What is the best way to get started ? Not using speculation and guess work. Just facts. How much can DNA testing really do ?

From what I can tell by your original post, you have only taken the Y DNA test. That in itself does not tell you much about your family tree. It only tells you what Y DNA haplogroup males in your direct paternal line have -- and gives you some indication about where that halplogroup originated. That's very little information. As an example: The Y DNA test you took only tells you a very small piece of information about one of your eight great-grandparents. It tells you absolutely nothing about your other seven great-grandparents.

Most of your DNA is not Y DNA (from your direct paternal line) or mitochondrial DNA (from your direct maternal line) but automosomal DNA. The FamilyFinder test looks at the automsomal DNA and over time, gives you far more of an indication of your many, many ancestral families.

[EdwardRHill]

In a best case scenario that's how it would work, however, in the practical world it's not what works best in this particular case. Deep clade testing only works for deep ancestry relationships. STR is the best determinate for recent ancestry. My group holds a rare surname so it is not going to approach the numbers of the Hill Clan. It's very difficult to get new members to join, and many of them do not know their ancestry beyond three generations. Fortunately, if you are a "St. John" we have only been able to detect three viable and distinct lineages.

I don't know how many people are in your group or what they're predicted Haplogroup are. When you say base Haplogroup do you mean one of the 20 haplogroups A through T?

I'm going to say thats what you mean and if they are predicted to be in different base Haplogroups than they are not a recent ancestry match. So I don't know why that would be of interest to you.

Also did you miss type your Haplogroup information?

[Zaru]

I don't know how many people are in your group or what they're predicted Haplogroup are. When you say base Haplogroup do you mean one of the 20 haplogroups A through T?

I'm going to say thats what you mean and if they are predicted to be in different base Haplogroups than they are not a recent ancestry match. So I don't know why that would be of interest to you.

Also did you miss type your Haplogroup information?

I wrote baseline "haplotype"-not "haplogroup". We are essentially broken into two separate haplogroups- I1a and R1b in the project. The baseline haplotype would be the one that the immigrant ancestor has. Of course, 20 people claim him, but the haplotypes are all over the place so figuring out what the Immigrant Ancestor's haplotype is has been a great challenge.

[EdwardRHill]

I wrote baseline "haplotype"-not "haplogroup". We are essentially broken into two separate haplogroups- I1a and R1b in the project. The baseline haplotype would be the one that the immigrant ancestor has. Of course, 20 people claim him, but the haplotypes are all over the place so figuring out what the Immigrant Ancestor's haplotype is has been a great challenge.

Since I'm not a PA I might be the wrong person to go to. Have you contacted other PA's and gotten their idea's?

[Zaru]

Since I'm not a PA I might be the wrong person to go to. Have you contacted other PA's and gotten their idea's?

I was making some educated statements about the challenges to the OP regarding his concerns. I was not seeking advice regarding my own project, that is going to require more elbow grease on my part!

[EdwardRHill]

I was making some educated statements about the challenges to the OP regarding his concerns. I was not seeking advice regarding my own project, that is going to require more elbow grease on my part!

OH you directed them to me it probably would have been better to direct them to him.

[507]

I am having trouble believing the coordinator of this project. Now he says that not only do I belong in the project but he knows for certain who I am descended from back in the 1600's. How can he possibly know this from DNA ? Is project coordinator a paid position ? Is he blowing smoke trying to get a raise ? What do you guys think ?

[Jim Barrett]

I am having trouble believing the coordinator of this project. Now he says that not only do I belong in the project but he knows for certain who I am descended from back in the 1600's. How can he possibly know this from DNA ? Is project coordinator a paid position ? Is he blowing smoke trying to get a raise ? What do you guys think ?

I haven't been following all of your statements in this topic because the posts got so far off topic.

I assume you are referring to a FTDNA project and by coordinator you are referring to what FTDNA calls the "Group Administrator". I can assure you that FTDNA's Group Administrators are not paid by FTDNA. Unless the Group Administrator of the project has done a lot of genealogical research on YOUR line it is not possible to state from DNA tests provided by FTDNA that you descend from a particular person.

Again I'm assuming that you have taken a Y-DNA test. The results of these test will indicate that you and other men either do or do not share a common paternal ancestor. If you have a high level match (a low genetic distance on a high number of markers) you can be sure you share a common ancestor but the results will not tell you who that ancestor was.

Is the Group Administrator in question trying to get you to order other test and if so which test?

[507]

I haven't been following all of your statements in this topic because the posts got so far off topic.

I assume you are referring to a FTDNA project and by coordinator you are referring to what FTDNA calls the "Group Administrator". I can assure you that FTDNA's Group Administrators are not paid by FTDNA. Unless the Group Administrator of the project has done a lot of genealogical research on YOUR line it is not possible to state from DNA tests provided by FTDNA that you descend from a particular person.

Again I'm assuming that you have taken a Y-DNA test. The results of these test will indicate that you and other men either do or do not share a common paternal ancestor. If you have a high level match (a low genetic distance on a high number of markers) you can be sure you share a common ancestor but the results will not tell you who that ancestor was.

Is the Group Administrator in question trying to get you to order other test and if so which test?

Yes i have taken the YDNA 37 test. I have two exact matches on 37 markers. I also have 7 matches on 36 of 37 markers. And many many matches on 35 or 34 of 37 markers. The whole project has 98 people and he has us grouped into several clusters. There are about 20 people in my cluster. He said my results are the "modal value" for the whole cluster. He says that there is no doubt whatsoever that i belong on the project and also he is for certain that I am descended from one of three immigrant brothers that came to Pennsylvania in 1682. Others in the project appear to have a solid family tree all the way back with documentation to back it up. I don't. I have a family tree but I'm not sure about several generations. I am certain of who my father is and he said he is certain of who his father was but that is big gap from 1908 back to 1682. How can our group administrator say all these things for certain ? If he is correct then that is great and I appreciate the work he done. If he's wrong then im just wasteing all my time.

[1_mke]

Nothing is certain in life, its all about probabilities. Having said that, a 37 of 37 match is pretty strong evidence from what I've gathered.

[ragnar]

507, test more markers.

[lgmayka]

I am certain of who my father is and he said he is certain of who his father was but that is big gap from 1908 back to 1682. How can our group administrator say all these things for certain ? If he is correct then that is great and I appreciate the work he done. If he's wrong then im just wasteing all my time.

I think it's something in between. He is giving his best opinion that you probably descend from a particular 17th-century person. Or in other words, if you were going to look for a paper trail back to the 17th century, here is where you should start your search.

[Jim Barrett]

I also have 7 matches on 36 of 37 markers. And many many matches on 35 or 34 of 37 markers.

Of these 7 matches, have they tested to 67 markers? If so you might want to upgrade to see if the match still holds up.

The whole project has 98 people and he has us grouped into several clusters. There are about 20 people in my cluster. He said my results are the "modal value" for the whole cluster. He says that there is no doubt whatsoever that i belong on the project and also he is for certain that I am descended from one of three immigrant brothers that came to Pennsylvania in 1682.

If the admin has taken advantage of the material provided by FTDNA it is easy for the admin to set up a public website and group the project members based on Haplogroup and/or other information. It provides a modal value for each group. If the project surname is your surname and since you do have matches with other project members I'm sure you do belong in the project. As I stated before you probably do share a common ancestor with other members of the group. I don't know how he can be certain you descend from one of three men and not some ancestor of theirs unless there is an unusual mutation that the group has that doesn't show up before these three brothers.

Others in the project appear to have a solid family tree all the way back with documentation to back it up. I don't. I have a family tree but I'm not sure about several generations. I am certain of who my father is and he said he is certain of who his father was but that is big gap from 1908 back to 1682. How can our group administrator say all these things for certain ? If he is correct then that is great and I appreciate the work he done. If he's wrong then im just wasteing all my time.

If you have said, I missed where your paternal line is from. With mentions of "immigrant brothers that came to Pennsylvania in 1682" you should be able to trace your line back from your grandfather using census records. We have census records taken every 10 years, 1890 missing, back to 1850 that list family members. Your "local" public library may have free access to these. Do a little research on your own. Go back as far as you can then contact the members you match. See if they can connect to the ancestor you find.