Slightly Off Topic: Ashkenazic Intelligence-disease?

[josh w.]

My last comments since I doubt that we can resolve our differences. No one doubts that there are demonstable group differences. The issue is what factors are responsible for such differences. Herrnstein and Murrary concluded that it is highly likely that racial differences in intellectual areas are partially due to differences in genes. They failed to mention that there is a complete absence of genetic (genome) evidence that would support such a conclusion- not a single study. Some might think that the differences are so large that genetic factors must be involved. Herrnstein and Murrary failed to mention that it is not at all difficult to find differences of comparible magnitude between groups within the same race. Such differences can even be found between groups of similar haplogroup membership provided there are evident environmental differences. Examples of such research have compared European immigrants to Isreal with Near Eastern immigrants to Isreal and Northern Irish Catholics with Northern Irish Protestants. (Still think that I am politically correct) Such group differences tend to disappear with a reduction in environmental disparity.

[josh w.]

P.S. Herrnstein and Murrary undercut their "highly likely" position by noting that if current trends continue, racial differences (e.g. on the SAT) will disappear by mid-century. They then suggested why trends might not continue, while acknowledging that future predictions are merely guesswork-- a far less extravagant statement.

[rconn2]

No one doubts that there are demonstable group differences. The issue is what factors are responsible for such differences.

You agree there are group differences, but challenge even the weak assertion "partially due to differences in genes" by suggesting there's a paucity of evidence for a genetic basis and that environment is the determining factor.

You seem (imho) to be squirming around a conclusion you don't want to accept. That phenotypes are based on genotypes and the influence of environment is well accepted -- except for such traits as intelligence that set off the PC sensitivity alarm. Don't twins raised independently have highly correlated IQ's? Aren't IQ tests stable from early childhood on? Oh that's right... IQ tests are biased or meaningless or whatever. Pick other intellectual traits... musical, math, chess playing ability... I have little doubt these correlate as well. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Clochaire]

....
A second suggestion, wrote Dr. Jared Diamond of the University of California, Los Angeles, in a 1994 article, "is selection in Jews for the intelligence putatively required to survive recurrent persecution, and also to make a living by commerce, because Jews were barred from the agricultural jobs available to the non-Jewish population."....

I am continuing to read and evaluate. But some preliminary challenges may be in order.

Jared Diamond? The same Jared Diamond who began "Guns, Germs and Steel" with the "Yali's Question" chapter, which seemed to question the assumed causal links between innate intelligence and participation in Western liberal democracies?

Has he done a 180? Has he suddenly decided that intelligence can best be measured by participation in Western financial and legal institutions? Has he suddenly decided, contrary to his earlier view, that it takes no intelligence at all to survive as a small farmer at the whims of mercurial landlords and magnates, as well as the weather?

I'll keep reading, but something doesn't smell right here. Maybe a little more clarity is in order ....


Jack

[Jim Denning]

I am continuing to read and evaluate. But some preliminary challenges may be in order.

Jared Diamond? The same Jared Diamond who began "Guns, Germs and Steel" with the "Yali's Question" chapter, which seemed to question the assumed causal links between innate intelligence and participation in Western liberal democracies?

Has he done a 180? Has he suddenly decided that intelligence can best be measured by participation in Western financial and legal institutions? Has he suddenly decided, contrary to his earlier view, that it takes no intelligence at all to survive as a small farmer at the whims of mercurial landlords and magnates, as well as the weather?

I'll keep reading, but something doesn't smell right here. Maybe a little more clarity is in order ....


Jack

i saw the shows and thought he was way off base

[Clochaire]

i saw the shows and thought he was way off base

Jim,

I have both the book and the National Geographic DVD. I am a big fan of both.

In what way do you feel either were way off?

Jack

[Jim Denning]

Jim,

I have both the book and the National Geographic DVD. I am a big fan of both.

In what way do you feel either were way off?

Jack

because when you start thinking the result its easier to prove

also when you dont check the sources of people

its why there are so many matches in europe with askenazi
\the reason is cause europeans are related to askenazis.
where is his therory that agrees with dna. e3bs crossed no africa to spain and keltoi crossed the caucusus mts to settle europe
the druids where ei they too crossed to britain and where the force that beat rome

i would have to rewatch to be more specific .but why waste that time again

[Clochaire]

because when you start thinking the result its easier to prove

also when you dont check the sources of people

its why there are so many matches in europe with askenazi
\the reason is cause europeans are related to askenazis.
where is his therory that agrees with dna. e3bs crossed no africa to spain and keltoi crossed the caucusus mts to settle europe
the druids where ei they too crossed to britain and where the force that beat rome

i would have to rewatch to be more specific .but why waste that time again

I admit that I don't recall a lot of the specifics either.

The thing that I really liked from that book, at least my impression of that book, was that Diamond always seemed to maintain a relatively unbiased approach to huge, complicated phenomena and seemed to find good criteria that would be minimally subjective in evaluating the accomplishments of various peoples.

That's why I am shocked by the apparent implication that Diamond would find concentration of people in certain specific professions to be indicative of innate intelligence.

I see now that this paper was supposedly written in 1994. "Guns, Germs and Steel" came out in 1998. So Diamond may have been working on both at the same time. That makes this seem even stranger to me.

[josh w.]

Jack,
Yes, the very same Jared Diamond. The U. of Utah hypotheses on Diamond's issue are worth checking out but they have not been tested yet. So far, no one has been able to rule out strictly environmental explanations for Ashkenazi achievement. As I mentioned in a different forum, there have been some attempts to relate genes affecting brain structure to IQ, but these results have been seriously questioned on scientific grounds and no one has found a such relation to Jewish IQ.

[Clochaire]

Jack,
Yes, the very same Jared Diamond. The U. of Utah hypotheses on Diamond's issue are worth checking out but they have not been tested yet. So far, no one has been able to rule out strictly environmental explanations for Ashkenazi achievement.

Josh,

Yes, social explanations tend to suit my inclinations.

I sometimes think of how ironic it is that the long, sad history of Jewish people may have, ironically, created social conditions that prepared them well for what currently seems to be the urban, information-intensive trajectory of modern paradigm.

Blah-blah-blah, like I know what I'm talkin' about. Just my first thoughts and impressions.

[Clochaire]

Josh,

Yes, social explanations tend to suit my inclinations.

I sometimes think of how ironic it is that the long, sad history of Jewish people may have, ironically, created social conditions that prepared them well for what currently seems to be the urban, information-intensive trajectory of modern paradigm.

Blah-blah-blah, like I know what I'm talkin' about. Just my first thoughts and impressions.

I should be more careful. I think I meant "LITERATE" instead of "INFORMATION INTENSIVE". What kind of silly notion is 'information intensity'? There are lots of alternative methods for conveying or recording 'information'. Just that maybe they're not ultimately, over the lifespan of a culture or civilization, equally efficient.

[Jambalaia32]

sMART jEWS ,sICK gENES

I'd rather have one of the more intellectual Jobs ,myself-but maybe I'm not smart enough.....I love super intellect.Anyway I thought I had Gaucher's Disease a few months ago because I felt so freekin' weird and ill and my symptoms felt something like the description of Gaucher's I had read about in the newspaper.I looked online and all the Gaucher's places were out-of-state,.But I called one and they told me to ...I can't remember what they told me but,I was lined up for a $500 test.They do ask you if you're Jewish and does anyone else in your family have it-I'm thinking no,but I'm the only one in my family that I know that has Celiac disease as well,so I could be the first for many things.(I THINK MANY CITY PEOPLE AREN'T INBRED- THAT'S WHY THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS DON'T ALL HAVE THE SAME DISEASE,UNLIKE GROUPS THAT ARE MORE CLOSELY BRED TOGETHER,FOR WHATEVER REASON.LIKE,YOU 'ILL EXPRESS THE DISEASE GENES ,BUT NOT ALL YOUR RELATIVES, AS THEY AREN'T ALL MARRIED TO EACH OTHER.) .I postponed persuing GAUCHER'S Testing i,because I had wanted to get a general exam 1st.Months later maybe even two years later I was diagnosed with Sjogren's syndrome/disease.It where the immune system attacks moist body organs,primarily the mouth and eyes and joints,but can affect lungs,brain,muscles,kidneys,bladder,chronic fatigue and so on.I don't know if anyone actually dies from it-I hope not.

[Deirwha]

speaking of off topic but triggered by this post

I feel a certain amount of envy for someone who measures his mt matches in the thousands. I have 4 at 0 GD, low and high resolution. Within 1 I have all of 15. I am T.

Y Chromosome not doing much more. 22 at 25 markers within 2 GD, none at 37 or 67, plus now somewhat over 50 members of the Y haplogroup clade of S29.

[Jambalaia32]

Quit Bull****tin' us.

I feel a certain amount of envy for someone who measures his mt matches in the thousands. I have 4 at 0 GD, low and high resolution. Within 1 I have all of 15. I am T.

Y Chromosome not doing much more. 22 at 25 markers within 2 GD, none at 37 or 67, plus now somewhat over 50 members of the Y haplogroup clade of S29.

Yeah,I'm Lucky,You're not. Not really. Deirwha's are always envious-just because.I only have like 2 exact matches and I haven't been raised near them,never see them,and probably ain't gonna marry one,so I don't know any of these fabulous folks either! (who says their fabulous? They could be quite horrific! ) In that case I'll be glad I never met them!