clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

Clovis not first (coastal Oregonians 14,000 years ago)

This is an important, just-published development.

DNA From Fossil Feces Breaks Clovis Barrier
Science
April 3, 2008

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/320/5872/37.pdf

"Now, in a Science paper published online (www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1154116) this week, an international team reports what some experts consider the strongest evidence yet against the 'Clovis First' position: 14,000-year-old ancient DNA from fossilized human excrement (coprolites), found in caves in south-central Oregon."

"The 14 coprolites were found in 2002 and 2003 during excavations in Oregon's Paisley Caves...Any way you cut the poop, people and dogs would have to be at the site within days of each other 14,000 years ago."

[Jim Denning]

http://cita.chattanooga.org/mtdna.html

3 different migrations last 20,000 yrs ago from mtdna

they didnt cross the ice til 13000 yrs ago

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/stoneage/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/stoneage/clovis.html

TV Program Description
Original PBS Broadcast Date: November 9, 2004

soon to be on here

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/

Stone Age homepage

Ever since unusually ancient and deadly spear points were found near Clovis, New Mexico in the 1930s, many archeologists have believed that this type of weapon originated with the first settlers of the New World, who supposedly migrated from Asia at the end of the last ice age. In "America's Stone Age Explorers," NOVA reports new evidence that challenges this widely held view.

The hunt for clues takes NOVA to sites of stunning discoveries in western Pennsylvania and southern Chile; to southern France, where Stone Age artifacts have been found that resemble the famous Clovis points; to the high arctic to learn the techniques that may have been used to cross the ice-encrusted Atlantic 17,000 years before Columbus; and to a remarkable find in central Texas that may hold the key to who invented the Clovis technology.

The distinctive design of a Clovis point (see The Fenn Cache) is perfect for killing big game, making it a Stone Age weapon of mass destruction. The Clovis point may even have been behind the extinction of large ice age mammals such as the mammoth (see End of the Big Beasts). Clovis points have been found at archeological sites throughout North America, and for decades these sites represented the oldest accepted evidence of human presence in the New World.

Many archeologists therefore concluded that hunters equipped with Clovis technology were the first settlers of the Americas and that they probably arrived from Asia at the end of the Ice Age about 13,500 years ago, when lower sea level allowed hunters to cross a land bridge connecting Siberia and Alaska. But there is growing evidence that humans were in the Americas long before the Clovis hunters (see Before Clovis).

One of the best known of the possibly pre-Clovis sites is called Meadowcroft, near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. There, Jim Adovasio of Mercyhurst Archeological Institute has been excavating artifacts well below the geological layer that corresponds to the Clovis period, although many archeologists dispute his evidence. "A lot of people ... think that this is not only a repudiation of a well-accepted dogma, it's a repudiation of themselves," Adovasio says.

Another promising pre-Clovis dig is Monte Verde in southern Chile, where archeologist Tom Dillehay, formerly of the University of Kentucky, has made an unusually rich find half a world away from the Asian land bridge route. Also joining the debate are scientists using DNA analysis of current populations of Native Americans to look for clues of their ancestry—again with intriguing but controversial results.

One team even proposes that the first Americans came from Europe, not Asia, based on the similarity of Clovis points to the weapons of the Solutreans, who lived about 17,000 years ago in what is now southern France and northern Spain. If the Solutreans ever crossed the Atlantic, they may have traveled like today's Eskimos, who make long journeys skirting ice floes in watertight skin boats, hunting arctic game as they go.

Archeologist Michael Collins of the University of Texas at Austin has an even more startling theory. The theory is based on his excavations at Gault, Texas, which show evidence of a more complex Clovis culture than ever imagined, including a diet that spans the food chain, evidence of a sophisticated trade network, hundreds of types of tools, and possibly the earliest example of art in the Americas.

"Where did Clovis come from?" asks Collins. "The longstanding notion of the rapid spread of Clovis across the continent has been taken to mean the spread of a people across the continent. An alternative might be that the spread of Clovis is actually the expansion of a technology across existing populations—analogous to the fact you can go anywhere in the world and find people driving John Deere tractors."

In other words, the Clovis point could be the first technological breakthrough in the Americas, invented by people who had long been resident here—and then adopted by their neighbors, who knew a good thing when they saw it.

[Jim Denning]

http://cita.chattanooga.org/mtdna.html

3 different migrations last 20,000 yrs ago from mtdna

they didnt cross the ice til 13000 yrs ago

[Jim Denning]

PBS IS RERUNNING A REVAMPED SHOW IN THIS TONIGHT

will rerun on other cable stations for the comming weeks

[Jim Denning]

Secondly, the Clovis-first scenario has been dismissed by many archaeologists - including me . I accept a pre-Clovis presence in North America and think that Clovis developed in here. If Clovis did indeed develop here, the absence of Clovis in Asia makes perfect sense. And, the mere fact that there were people here before Clovis neither requires nor in and of itself supports the idea of a European migration. The scenario that best fits the evidence is probably one of multiple migrations from Asia, taking various routes at different times. It'll take more than "hey, these things kind of look alike" to convince me that a Solutrean migration occurred.

we agree to disagree awaiting more info

[Jim Denning]

Jim, I understand your questions about X and no Clovis in Asia, but there are explanations that don't require unsubstantiated claims of a European migration. First of all, there is X in Asia. We're still arguing about the relationships between the European, Asian, and Native American variants, but every Native American mtDNA haplogroup has now been found in Asia. .

not in the region anyway near siberia
Theodore G. Schurr said that 2005 convention wash dc

[augustin25]

Jim, I understand your questions about X and no Clovis in Asia, but there are explanations that don't require unsubstantiated claims of a European migration. First of all, there is X in Asia. We're still arguing about the relationships between the European, Asian, and Native American variants, but every Native American mtDNA haplogroup has now been found in Asia.

Secondly, the Clovis-first scenario has been dismissed by many archaeologists - including me . I accept a pre-Clovis presence in North America and think that Clovis developed in here. If Clovis did indeed develop here, the absence of Clovis in Asia makes perfect sense. And, the mere fact that there were people here before Clovis neither requires nor in and of itself supports the idea of a European migration. The scenario that best fits the evidence is probably one of multiple migrations from Asia, taking various routes at different times. It'll take more than "hey, these things kind of look alike" to convince me that a Solutrean migration occurred.

[Jim Denning]

Yes, I've seen it. A controversial theory makes for good TV, but not good archaeology. I generally think Dennis Stanford is quite knowledgeable and a good archaeologist -that's why many of us are quite baffled by the whole thing. The similarities between Solutrean and Clovis lithics are superficial. For the Solutrean hypothesis to work Solutrean folks would have had to migrate, stop making similar points for a few thousand years, and then suddenly "rediscover" how to make them, resulting in the birth of Clovis points. Sounds feasible

unless they lived alot on the ice

i saw a local show in new hampshire it was a dig. the points they found were definatly clovis yet the acrheologists said it migrated from siberia.since the only technology there are blades installed on a bone thats not likely. i asked the ftdna archeologist Theodore G. Schurr 2 yrs ago if he thought the no clovis and no x was a problem. he said it could be but he didnt think so. i have no problem with that except if you hold that standard to the north atlantic
it would make things easier.
the original point is since the thru the ice in alaska isnt there any more and the coast line is probable then why should the possibility of clovis be unbelieveable. i love this people who defend old stuff always say there isnt any evidence yet the first lucy didnt walk up and smack the digger who found her.


one other thing if you are in italy below the ice line and you say i need to migrate would you choose all the way across russia to siberia and then wait an eternity and then find america.or would you migrate across france to maine or maryland the first land along the ice flow where boats and sunning seals would be available. and maybe they went west to better land.
probably to where the anmals liked to live. who knows maybe there is a better thing comming down the road. one things for sure change is always there. i never think we know the last thing.

[augustin25]

Yes, I've seen it. A controversial theory makes for good TV, but not good archaeology. I generally think Dennis Stanford is quite knowledgeable and a good archaeologist -that's why many of us are quite baffled by the whole thing. The similarities between Solutrean and Clovis lithics are superficial. For the Solutrean hypothesis to work Solutrean folks would have had to migrate, stop making similar points for a few thousand years, and then suddenly "rediscover" how to make them, resulting in the birth of Clovis points. Sounds feasible

[Jim Denning]

[QUOTE=augustin25]I read most of it. People seem to want to accept some of the most complicated and far-fetched scenarios out there. There's a reason the only people who buy into Stanford and Bradley's Solutrean hypothesis aren't archaeologists.[/QUOTE
whats that reason?

have you seee the pbs show

[augustin25]

I read most of it. People seem to want to accept some of the most complicated and far-fetched scenarios out there. There's a reason the only people who buy into Stanford and Bradley's Solutrean hypothesis aren't archaeologists.

[Jim Denning]

Instead of repeating you can read all of this

Instead of repeating you can read all of this

this should save some typing

[Guy]

how much proof did they have when they adopted the alaska route other then what people thought happened to the ice which also was wrong
theroys that people like and that fit their ideas of what happened

why do we need more then they did?
other then we want to be right

How True ! How True !
I've never been a beliver in the Alaska land bridge theroy, I can't see that much ice, miles thick, just happen to open a door for them to come down to the middle of North America, I believe in the sea routes along the Pacific and the Atlantic alot more.
If you want to watch a good video on the European and North American connecton, buy the video produce by Nova title " The Mystery of The Red Paint People".,
Which claimed in the New England area during prehistoric times, there was a seafaring race from Europe that came over to the New England area, they think they were connected to the Megalithic culture.
Archeoligist found artifacts in the New England area, that were used for deep sea fishing, which shows that the prehistoric people did go out in boats over great distance on the ocean ( Solutrean theory ring a bell )

[Jim Denning]

I know we need more proof than this to say there is a connection, but it's a start.
I'm a member of the "Center for the Study of the First Americans" and this group is the one to join, if you want to keep up with the latest news on the Clovis culture and the Solutrean theroy.
Also, most Archeoligist think that the Clovis culture started on the east coast of North America, than spread west, which is another good connection to the Solutreans.
Here is the "Center for the study of the first Americans" web site, http://centerfirstamericans.com/

how much proof did they have when they adopted the alaska route other then what people thought happened to the ice which also was wrong
theroys that people like and that fit their ideas of what happened

why do we need more then they did?
other then we want to be right

[Jim Denning]

Water levels is what I was wondering about. Atlantis couldn't be more than 400 ft below sea-level. Volcanos can leave a rim but i doubt they'd wipe out a continent.

On the second map the split at the Azores which runs up past Spain looks menacing. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

Still a submerged continent no more than 300-400 feet below sea level shouldn't be too hard to map out with todays tech stuff. A few valcanos shouldn't have erase the thing totally.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

The ice-Age peak had seas estimated to be 400 ft below what they are today. the Grand Banks of NFLD would have been a hundred feet above sea level. Hard to imagine.

If you want to connect Clovis with Europe maybe
they stopped at the Grand Banks . The Azores is halfway to Spain from there.

From the Grand Banks it's south to Boston and beyond, and nicer weather.

if there was a series of islands called alantis then no gulf stream went to britian and iceland ,greenland and nova scotia they would of been much colder until the island disapeared this would allow the climate of the world to drasticly change