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clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

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  • rudeboy
    replied
    3 points

    1.---The M45/P found in Central Asia, AFAIK, is not really "Central Asian" or "Turanian". Central Asia was a desert during the ice age. It's doubtful that people lived there (though they probably passed through it before that). The earliest skeletons found post ice age, AFAIK, are no more than 3,000 years old. The M45/P in Central Asia now was likely brought by the Altaic nomads (Mongols, Turks). M45/P is still found in high percentages among them and among Siberians, as well as in significant % in SE Asia and to a less extent, China, where the neolithic erased much of the diversity.

    Yes, this P was ancestral to many East and West Eurasians, but at around 30,000-40,000 years ago, the relationship translated to now is meaningless. No modern races existed then. All the fossils that have been found resemble more or less Australasian and African people of now.

    As for modern Native Americans, they are osteologically "Mongoloids". As the anthropologists says, once you strip to the bones, it's a north Asian face.

    2.---Prior to 8,500, it seems that the north of the Americas was inhabited by Ainu/Polynesian-like people (in skeletal morphology atleast), while the south was inhabited by people clustering with Jomon, Australasian, and Africans. Since Ainu and Polynesian are genetically and osteologically established as admixed populations between osteologically "Mongoloid" people and Australasians, the "Caucasians" in North America were probably a result of contact between an early coastal population that stretched from Asia to the Americas and a later Siberian/Inland population that expanded after the ice age.

    3.---As for the Solutrean connection, Clovis has a wide variety of tools and only one blade out of them was similar to Solutrean, not to mention they were separated by 8,000 (?) years. I can't picture a sea voyage in open ocean since no evidence of advanced maritime technology and knowledge have been found. You can't just decide to make a living off the sea one day and do a "road trip". As for animals going on artic ice or even glacier, it's impossible. Even counting out the cold, there is no food to forage on.

    Solutrean might've developed indigenously or maybe from a coastal culture in Asia. It is not found in Siberia or Alaska. That is correct.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by dentate
    Hey wait a minute. The M45 mutation (P haplogroup), which I just found out runs in the male line of my maternal grandfather, marks a population that gave rise to both Q and R. The time depth is 30,000 years. More than sufficient to make this Central Asian/Siberian group a possible ancestor to both Europeans and many Amerinds. Seems logical that if you find related groups at remote sites from each other, either they migrated a long way, or they were once everywhere in between and have since disappeared from the intermediate areas. The latter is going to be a more likely explanation in most cases than fantastic perimeter trips around entire continents followed by transoceanic voyages into the unknown 20,000 years ago.

    Jeff Schweitzer
    it might also be something like why if pangia exsisted do certain places like australia have such diverse animals. but then again we havent tested alot either. i think there is tons of clovis points in new england and mid alantic but people just classify them wrong and i wouldnt be surprised if they went back and forth many times . and lived on the ice in the alantic . i mean why do eskimos live where they do now. why do siberians do the same.

    that iceflow in the alantic made the whole thing one continent with out a land conection. who are we to think no one lived on it . that mamoths didnt wander on to it. seals didnt slide onto the ice polar bears didnt migrate south on it to the edge of the alantic. the point beine that alaska is no longer the only answer. and the more open we are to other explaintions to these things
    the better we will be

    i wish the scientists were allowed to examine that caucasian skeliton they found in the mid west.i think that would of provided alot of answers

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  • dentate
    replied
    Hey wait a minute. The M45 mutation (P haplogroup), which I just found out runs in the male line of my maternal grandfather, marks a population that gave rise to both Q and R. The time depth is 30,000 years. More than sufficient to make this Central Asian/Siberian group a possible ancestor to both Europeans and many Amerinds. Seems logical that if you find related groups at remote sites from each other, either they migrated a long way, or they were once everywhere in between and have since disappeared from the intermediate areas. The latter is going to be a more likely explanation in most cases than fantastic perimeter trips around entire continents followed by transoceanic voyages into the unknown 20,000 years ago.

    Jeff Schweitzer

    Leave a comment:


  • T E Peterman
    replied
    If I recall right, some of you contributed to a lengthy post on this issue before the hacking incident last summer.

    The Solutrean culture popped up in Europe -seemingly out of the blue- and lasted for about a thousand years. When I was studying archaeology at Northwestern University about 25 years ago, there was a lot of discussion & mystery about the Solutreans. Who were they? Where did they come from? Where did they go? The artefacts they left suggest a culture that was a lot more advanced than either the Magdalenian culture that preceded them & the culture that succeeded them. The opinion at the time was that they were not locals, but came from who knows where. After leaving, the locals moved back into the sites & left more artefacts that looked like those from earlier. If I recall right, the date of the Solutrean was somewhere within a few thousand years of 20,000 years ago.

    Although the Nova program discussed the Solutreans as a possible source for Clovis, separated by only 5,000 years in time, in the end, the program suggested that Clovis was home grown in North America -this would be plausible if we accept that people were here in the pre-Clovis phase.

    I wouldn't be surprised if Clovis and Solutrean are linked, but in a reverse manner from what everyone else thinks. Imagine if early Americans developed Clovis, as they followed the Pacific coast to Tierra del Fuego & then came back up the Atlantic coast some time prior to 20,000 years ago. Imagine if these early Americans sailed across the Atlantic to Europe & left the Solutrean artefacts & then dispersed.

    The sites where Clovis-Solutrean may have developed may have been inundated by the rising sea levels. A lot remains to be discovered.

    As for the X mtDNA. If I recall right, for a long time, it was only found in low frequencies in Native Americans & Europeans. I read somewhere that a less derived form of X was finally located in Siberia near Lake Baikal (which would make sense). X is a "sister" to A, I, W, and R, all "daughters" of N. X was the "aunt" to H-V, J-T, & U-K and counted as one of the original "Seven Daughters of Eve". Considering that both Europe & the Americas received migration from out of Siberia/ Central Asia, this is a better explanation for the X distribution that a trans-Atlantic migration.

    The argument against a Europe to America (or visa versa) migration is actually a lack of y-DNA & mtDNA evidence. Did later genetic drift remove all of the DNA that was on the "wrong" continent?

    Timothy Peterman

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    not really
    i watched a local program on N.H. pbs by some small time achealogists
    they found clovis points and then assumed it to be from the alaska people lol . see until you can debrainwash scientists they wont change their thought patterns. and they assume [a deadly word] the old therory

    its the same here in dna science a science maybe 20 yrs old at best and yet people act like we know it all. which we dont. we have not even started yet
    i always look at the map ftdna sends and i say why would someone migrate across siberia when they could follow the ice and fish and kill seals and the like.
    i would of gone west myself

    the inportant part was they had no axcess to russia to check until the late 90s. thats when they realized that clovis points never came that way because the museums didnt have any in their colections

    now some people will say you cant change your theroy on a few samples but they want to continue their old one on no samples. the point of dna is to show whats right not prove what we already believe

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I watched it, and it was enjoyable. Seems to shed new light on how western European genes got into some Native Americans. It looks like it will be years though before they can mount enough evidence to "prove" their theory.

    obtoo

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  • clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

    where did they come from this weeks NOVA
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