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clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

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  • rudeboy
    replied
    Originally posted by obtoo
    Proposing? I thought I was asking a question, my bad. It is certain that the inuit live on the coast and that the seals mate on the coast and have there pups there. Still the seals CAN be found on ice flows as well while they're out hunting fish. If the seals weren't on the ice flows why would the Inuit go hunting there in their kayak's? I took the liberty of copying this quote for you that talks about the inuit hunting grounds:

    It came from this page if you want to check it out yourself:
    http://www.bambusspiele.de/spiele/nanuuk/e_nunavut.htm

    You might want to read the page, you may be shocked to learn just how far the inuit roam from their home while hunting.

    obtoo
    This is off the coast. How much pack ice are there out in the open ocean? Even if there were, the chances of encountering ice and seals on them.. they'd starve to death.

    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    I AM 56 how about you

    old enough to see COW WASTE WHEN I SEE IT

    my 21 yr old bio major son says any scientist who thinks he has all the answers isnt a scientist i agree
    You don't act like you are 56, and just who is putting out "cow waste"? No one is proclaiming to have all the answers but to throw up any "maybe" and expect others to nod at it is pretty unreasonable. How can we get anywhere if we don't weigh on which is more reasonable but just followed personal sentiments?

    Anyway, I have no wish to further this. I simply added what I knew in this thread because it may be helpful; didn't come in to debate with sentiments.
    Last edited by rudeboy; 31 May 2005, 01:03 PM.

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    A brief observation regarding seals on ice flows. Let's say that Solutrean folk did follow the seals on the ice flows & after a few generations made in, quite by accident, to America. They would have lost their "unique" technological "know-how" -one thing that can't be found on ice is a good supply of rock for flint knapping.

    They would have had to re-invent the blade after getting to America & odds are, Clovis would in no way resemble the Solutrean.

    Earlier, I explored the possibility of an Atlantic crossing, but consider this to be highly unlikely. There is no genetic evidence for such a crossing that can't be explained at least as good or better by the Siberia-Beringia bridge.

    Timothy Peterman

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    I AM 56 how about you

    old enough to see COW WASTE WHEN I SEE IT

    my 21 yr old bio major son says any scientist who thinks he has all the answers isnt a scientist i agree

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    No, seals don't live on ice flow, and neither do Inuits. They all live by the coast. What you are proposing has no evidence.
    Proposing? I thought I was asking a question, my bad. It is certain that the inuit live on the coast and that the seals mate on the coast and have there pups there. Still the seals CAN be found on ice flows as well while they're out hunting fish. If the seals weren't on the ice flows why would the Inuit go hunting there in their kayak's? I took the liberty of copying this quote for you that talks about the inuit hunting grounds:
    The main hunting ground was the pack ice. Currents and wind separate the ice floes, which may be three to seven feet thick, or pile them on top of each other. Where the cracks form, we find the migration straits of the polar whales, which must surface to breathe. Seals and walruses need the ice floes to rest as well as the water to hunt and feed.
    It came from this page if you want to check it out yourself:
    http://www.bambusspiele.de/spiele/nanuuk/e_nunavut.htm

    You might want to read the page, you may be shocked to learn just how far the inuit roam from their home while hunting.

    obtoo

    Leave a comment:


  • rudeboy
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    LOOK AT THE MAP FTDNA SENDS TO H'S AND X'S thats what they say happened but it doesnt make sence unless you want it to fit a set therory

    look at one time the ebb and flow was a set documtted therory of facts
    we know what happened there. you see what you want to see. thats the history of science. people who find new things are attacked.until the evidence is so strong the old therory collapses. sit back and watch the inevitable.
    the funniest thing is scientists as bright as they are, usually never see it
    What does H have to do with anything we are talking about? The Native American X isn't even the same type as ones found in Europe. There are missing nods in X and it looks like it could be as old as 50,000 years, when most of the world weren't populated yet.
    Originally posted by obtoo
    Excuse me for asking but I've seen this posted around here a couple of times and I don't understand it. Now of course nothing grows on the ice flows. Seals however do live on ice flows and hunt fish do they not? Is that not how the Inuit survived for so long hunting the seals, whales and fishing?


    Why not, the Inuit do, don't they?

    obtoo
    No, seals don't live on ice flow, and neither do Inuits. They all live by the coast. What you are proposing has no evidence. Might as well propose that they came on an asteroid.
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    SHHSSSSS be quite do you hear the sound of an established genetics, archaeology and osteology accepted theory slipping away
    i do

    another case of genetics, archaeology which is maybe 20 yrs old having all the facts.i dont think so!!
    What is this post about? Real mature. How old are you?
    So, you are saying Native Americans are paleo-Europeans?
    No, all of it is recent. In fact your Kennewick Man and mtDNA X connection to Europe have already been disproven by studies within the last 5 years. There are some links on my forum.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by rudeboy
    "Maybe"'s don't a logical, accepted theory make. The Beringia crossing is established because genetics, archaeology (post-Clovis), and osteology (the Native American is osteologically a "Mongoloid" in skull and in skeletal traits as well as dental morphology) ties the Americas to Beringia.
    The way you put it, it seems you think Native Americans are paleo-Europeans. It's all sentiments, as I said.

    SHHSSSSS be quite do you hear the sound of an established genetics, archaeology and osteology accepted theory slipping away
    i do

    another case of genetics, archaeology which is maybe 20 yrs old having all the facts.i dont think so!!

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Game don't go on ice flows. Nothing grows on them for games to eat and graze upon.
    Excuse me for asking but I've seen this posted around here a couple of times and I don't understand it. Now of course nothing grows on the ice flows. Seals however do live on ice flows and hunt fish do they not? Is that not how the Inuit survived for so long hunting the seals, whales and fishing?

    And how would they survive on the ocean, by fishing?
    Why not, the Inuit do, don't they?

    obtoo

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by rudeboy

    "Maybe"'s don't a logical, accepted theory make. The Beringia crossing is established because genetics, archaeology (post-Clovis), and osteology (the Native American is osteologically a "Mongoloid" in skull and in skeletal traits as well as dental morphology) ties the Americas to Beringia.
    The way you put it, it seems you think Native Americans are paleo-Europeans. It's all sentiments, as I said.
    LOOK AT THE MAP FTDNA SENDS TO H'S AND X'S thats what they say happened but it doesnt make sence unless you want it to fit a set therory

    look at one time the ebb and flow was a set documtted therory of facts
    we know what happened there. you see what you want to see. thats the history of science. people who find new things are attacked.until the evidence is so strong the old therory collapses. sit back and watch the inevitable.
    the funniest thing is scientists as bright as they are, usually never see it

    Leave a comment:


  • rudeboy
    replied
    Your emotional post is an excellent example of sentiments, as I'm only commenting on the facts of the matter. I don't know why you are so worked up.
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    OKAY so you think the alantic crossing has nothing behind it but you embrass the alaska therory. you think its okay people in europe migrated across siberia then across the berring straight waited for the ice to break and never left any tools anywhere
    ~Well, the later arrivals in the Americas are connected with Siberia-Beringia-Alaska. This is a fact.
    ~Clovis is not connected with Siberia, true, unless Dyuktai culture can be shown to be it's predecessor. I never said proto-Clovis or any of the cultures found before the modern Natives came from Siberia.
    ~Recent evidence seems to suggest that the earliest people came about from the Asian coast, as the geological, archeological, and osteological evidence makes this likely. A glacier seems to have actually separated them from the Beringians.
    ~Also, the mtDNA tested on the Wizards Beach remains (Paleo-Americans in morphology), all show up with mtDNA from East Eurasia.

    and you dismiss the same people in europe decideing to follow game along the ice flow in the north atlantic to new england and virgina where they left some tools okay i dont understand it but okay
    Game don't go on ice flows. Nothing grows on them for games to eat and graze upon. This is ridiculous and only speaks of your sentiments.

    personally if thor hyadall can cross the pacific on rafts to populate the pacific islands we cant even imagine the atlantic at all. we confine their movements to nothing east. but what i would like to see is the map of the ocean if it dropped enough to make the bering sea land what happenes to the carabean bahamas canary islands exactly how big was the atlantic. and what was it like without the gulf stream?
    Comparing the Bering Sea to the Atlantic Ocean and positing a land bridge or shorter distance during the ice age between Europe and the Americas is pretty out there. What would possess these people to cross over the ocean, a spirit of adventure? when all prehistoric people did was to spend all day gathering food, and even that wasn't enough. And how would they survive on the ocean, by fishing?

    if the big ice flow was about the bottom of iceland and greenland and the guulf stream didnt exist would the regular atlantic freeze like boston harbor .
    i mean just what was it like. must of been so bad to make people want to migrate across siberia which must of been a dreamland back then a tropical splenor paradise. now we are asked to except the alaskans sailed boats down the coast to islands off california before they touched the inner continent. well if the pacific people did that why not the alantic better yet why not both and maybe more maybe some can across the southern route since the oldest people are south american.
    but old beliefs die hard dont they
    "Maybe"'s don't a logical, accepted theory make. The Beringia crossing is established because genetics, archaeology (post-Clovis), and osteology (the Native American is osteologically a "Mongoloid" in skull and in skeletal traits as well as dental morphology) ties the Americas to Beringia.
    The way you put it, it seems you think Native Americans are paleo-Europeans. It's all sentiments, as I said.
    Last edited by rudeboy; 28 May 2005, 12:11 PM.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    BTW sentimentality isnt what we have . maybe your trying to keep an old therory in a nice box might fit the defination of sentimentality

    personaly i believe these people were much like we are today smarter then your average bear

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by rudeboy
    I've looked at the evidence for migration from Europe and there is nothing to go on. It's worth as a theory is on par with proposed links between Egypt and Mesoamerica. A lot of it is based on sentiments. Native Americans, once regarded as savages, are now admired, identified with, and seem really noble, wise, stoic... a romantic image of plains Indians with awesome bone structure, tanned, wild and free, living a life many in this enslaved, industrial modernity would like to live. So, people identify with them subconsciously.

    ."
    OKAY so you think the alantic crossing has nothing behind it but you embrass the alaska therory. you think its okay people in europe migrated across siberia then across the berring straight waited for the ice to break and never left any tools anywhere
    and you dismiss the same people in europe decideing to follow game along the ice flow in the north atlantic to new england and virgina where they left some tools okay i dont understand it but okay

    personally if thor hyadall can cross the pacific on rafts to populate the pacific islands we cant even imagine the atlantic at all. we confine their movements to nothing east. but what i would like to see is the map of the ocean if it dropped enough to make the bering sea land what happenes to the carabean bahamas canary islands exactly how big was the atlantic. and what was it like without the gulf stream?

    if the big ice flow was about the bottom of iceland and greenland and the guulf stream didnt exist would the regular atlantic freeze like boston harbor .
    i mean just what was it like. must of been so bad to make people want to migrate across siberia which must of been a dreamland back then a tropical splenor paradise. now we are asked to except the alaskans sailed boats down the coast to islands off california before they touched the inner continent. well if the pacific people did that why not the alantic better yet why not both and maybe more maybe some can across the southern route since the oldest people are south american.
    but old beliefs die hard dont they

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  • rudeboy
    replied
    I've looked at the evidence for migration from Europe and there is nothing to go on. It's worth as a theory is on par with proposed links between Egypt and Mesoamerica. A lot of it is based on sentiments. Native Americans, once regarded as savages, are now admired, identified with, and seem really noble, wise, stoic... a romantic image of plains Indians with awesome bone structure, tanned, wild and free, living a life many in this enslaved, industrial modernity would like to live. So, people identify with them subconsciously.

    This exert from Bones basically sums up the sentimentality behind the theory:
    From Bones, page 4:
    "I didn't think this diorama could be right, but its images stuck with me anyway. I stashed them in that niche in my mind where admiration and fascination had begun to grow: these people had lived a free life, a different life from mine. Some part of these images must surely have come from evidence provided science, or it would never have been shown to the public in a museum. The story also had a certain power. It intrigued me almost as much as the stories I was reading about ancient Greece and Rome. It echoed what I saw on television westerns, stories about dangerous and devilish or noble Native Americans. One could imagine that these were Tonto's larger-than-life ancestors, who had fought their way across Arctic wastes, mountain glaciers, and frigid Priairies, killing gigantic Ice Age animals like saber-toothed tigers as they went. This voyage made my grandparents' trek from Eastern Europe seem small by comparison. Their way had been smoothed, after all, by European technologies. My father's father was a blacksmith who helped build the Grand Trunk Railway and who, before he was done with life, built as a hobby Saskatoon's first electric car. I used to ride around in it in parades. The disciplined control of metallurgy, electricity, nuclear power, science defined us: tenacity, brute strength, stoicism defined them."

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by wolfandclaw



    I think early man has been sold short, and why not cross from Europe to America. They were boxed in by glaciers. I think they could go anywhere they wanted and some DNA lines probably died out. And why not sail from points in Asia and Polynesia. If the water level ever dropped again I think some crow would find some dinner plates.

    Proof is the ultimate find but theories abound but I think are ancestors accomplished much much more than theyare credited for. Thank you for taking time to read this.
    i totaly agree


    look if the ocean level went down enough for the bering straight to be land what would islands look like what would hawaii have been would more islands be around

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    sailing

    I dont have my exact ref. in front of me but I feel a need to point out something that my husband and I find plausible.

    Around 70 some thousand years ago the body louse split and formed its own line (fact). To do this there had to be clothing on humans because thats the ONLY way it can survive (fact). Now nobody has said it could be fur skins but I would think the lice would have developed long before 70,000 y.ago if fur was all there was.

    Now we know the first place humans went to was Australia, which involved an ocean crossing that many scientists cant hardly believe but there you are with proof. Also it seems to be the general consenses that they followed the coastline. Since the oceans have raised sites are under water from Asia to the Americas to Europe.

    That being said and taking in to account info from the last 20 years that has blown old theories sky high. I take issue with programs and books showing early humans with crude, to say the least, rafts going for their ocean sailing.
    WHY??? The facts show they had clothing and who knows maybe crude weaving style plus stiching ability. (There continues to be uncovered ,cloth samples from earlier and earlier times) These people, us, could have made good rafts or crude boats and why not sails (the clothing issue again). And humans are out to see whats around the bend (Australia).Why did some never stop till the Earth was covered with humans.

    I think early man has been sold short, and why not cross from Europe to America. They were boxed in by glaciers. I think they could go anywhere they wanted and some DNA lines probably died out. And why not sail from points in Asia and Polynesia. If the water level ever dropped again I think some crow would find some dinner plates.

    Proof is the ultimate find but theories abound but I think are ancestors accomplished much much more than theyare credited for. Thank you for taking time to read this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Denning
    replied
    if your a hunter you foillow the game which would head west .
    they didnt have to do open sea even though they could of
    all they needed to do was hugh the coast and kill seals as they went

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