clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

[Hetware]

i sugest you keep a very open mind and do some reading.skelitons [plural] have been found and a great deal of evidence outside of the clovis argument that european and mediteranians people have been here.


i dont think he made it up at all

"In the USA if a 1000 yr old viking burial was found in New England..the remains could end up being buried in a Native Indian Ceremony. That's a little extreme..but where do we draw the line with affiliation?"

The specific case of a "viking burial" was hypothetical. I am aware of the Penion Woman, the Kennewick Man, etc. Interestingly, the suggestion that the Na Dene AMH came from Siberia via the Berring land bridge seems to suggest those people whould not have been as morphologically similar to Europeans as the more ancient and genetically distant inhabitants.

The point the OP was trying to make is that we have absurd "feel-good" laws in the US which prevent scientific investigation into matters such as whether human remains are closely related to other populations on the planet, European or not.

[M.O'Connor]

I was curious about coastlines and submerged landscapes which disappeared with the glacial melt.

I found this site but i'm going to keep searching for a better site. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

My curiosity about the tale of Atlantis being beyong the Pillars of Hercules.
(If Atlantis is beyond Spain) then there should be submerged landscapes in the Atlantic. (if one looks at that idea)

What I am looking for is ocean bottom topography of the area in the Atlantic Ocean outside of Spain/Gibraltar.

[Jim Denning]

I was curious about coastlines and submerged landscapes which disappeared with the glacial melt.

I found this site but i'm going to keep searching for a better site. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

My curiosity about the tale of Atlantis being beyong the Pillars of Hercules.
(If Atlantis is beyond Spain) then there should be submerged landscapes in the Atlantic. (if one looks at that idea)

What I am looking for is ocean bottom topography of the area in the Atlantic Ocean outside of Spain/Gibraltar.

remember ice age ocean levels and sudden changes due to volcanos and stuff like that. we dont know everything about whats happened to this earth.

[M.O'Connor]

Water levels is what I was wondering about. Atlantis couldn't be more than 400 ft below sea-level. Volcanos can leave a rim but i doubt they'd wipe out a continent.

On the second map the split at the Azores which runs up past Spain looks menacing. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

Still a submerged continent no more than 300-400 feet below sea level shouldn't be too hard to map out with todays tech stuff. A few valcanos shouldn't have erase the thing totally.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

The ice-Age peak had seas estimated to be 400 ft below what they are today. the Grand Banks of NFLD would have been a hundred feet above sea level. Hard to imagine.

If you want to connect Clovis with Europe maybe
they stopped at the Grand Banks . The Azores is halfway to Spain from there.

From the Grand Banks it's south to Boston and beyond, and nicer weather.

[Downer101]

Hey wait a minute. The M45 mutation (P haplogroup), which I just found out runs in the male line of my maternal grandfather, marks a population that gave rise to both Q and R. The time depth is 30,000 years. More than sufficient to make this Central Asian/Siberian group a possible ancestor to both Europeans and many Amerinds. Seems logical that if you find related groups at remote sites from each other, either they migrated a long way, or they were once everywhere in between and have since disappeared from the intermediate areas. The latter is going to be a more likely explanation in most cases than fantastic perimeter trips around entire continents followed by transoceanic voyages into the unknown 20,000 years ago.

Jeff Schweitzer

Not all Europeans only ones with the R haplogroup types and Q if there are any.. I is from the Middle Eastern Gravettian culture. In history, the Ameridinians/Native Americans didn't need to have a drastic advance in technology and culture. So technically speaking, the Native American's and European's M45 ancestor had roughly the same culture as the modern Native American (preferably Inuit) tribes. The Ameridinians are the European's closest relatives..

[tomcat]

..As for "Vikings", there is absolutely solid proof of a Norse presence in Newfoundland. The extent of that presence is not fully known. There has been speculation that there was a far more substantial presence than what has been discovered.....

I believe the evidence of L'Anse aux Meduse is no longer open to serious question - Norse sod-built habitations and evidence of the smelting of bog iron ...

[Guy]

where did they come from this weeks NOVA

I have the NOVA special on DVD, "America's Stone Age Explorers" and Scientific American ,"Coming Into America", both are very interesting to watch.
Both specials talk abut the Solutrean possibilty.
My thought's on this is I believe the Solutreans could have came to America and are connected to the Clovis culture.
Dr.Dennis Stanford, who is on both DVD specials, is writing a book about his Solutrean-Clovis possibilty, the University of California Press will print the book.
I'm not sure when it will be out, I keep checking the web, but I've found no date yet.
Dr.Dennis Stanford and Dr.Bruce Bradley are the Archeoligist that got this theroy started , they check out stone weapons in Russia, and nothing looked like Clovis, Dr.Bruce Bradley was going thru a book on the Solutrean culture one day, when he saw some pictures of Solutrean stone weapons, and to him they looked close to Clovis, Solutrean flint knappers knapped their spear points bi-facial, just like Clovis, which means they worked both sides of the stone spearpoint.
I know we need more proof than this to say there is a connection, but it's a start.
I'm a member of the "Center for the Study of the First Americans" and this group is the one to join, if you want to keep up with the latest news on the Clovis culture and the Solutrean theroy.
Also, most Archeoligist think that the Clovis culture started on the east coast of North America, than spread west, which is another good connection to the Solutreans.
Here is the "Center for the study of the first Americans" web site, http://centerfirstamericans.com/

[Jim Denning]

Water levels is what I was wondering about. Atlantis couldn't be more than 400 ft below sea-level. Volcanos can leave a rim but i doubt they'd wipe out a continent.

On the second map the split at the Azores which runs up past Spain looks menacing. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

Still a submerged continent no more than 300-400 feet below sea level shouldn't be too hard to map out with todays tech stuff. A few valcanos shouldn't have erase the thing totally.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

The ice-Age peak had seas estimated to be 400 ft below what they are today. the Grand Banks of NFLD would have been a hundred feet above sea level. Hard to imagine.

If you want to connect Clovis with Europe maybe
they stopped at the Grand Banks . The Azores is halfway to Spain from there.

From the Grand Banks it's south to Boston and beyond, and nicer weather.

if there was a series of islands called alantis then no gulf stream went to britian and iceland ,greenland and nova scotia they would of been much colder until the island disapeared this would allow the climate of the world to drasticly change

[Jim Denning]

I know we need more proof than this to say there is a connection, but it's a start.
I'm a member of the "Center for the Study of the First Americans" and this group is the one to join, if you want to keep up with the latest news on the Clovis culture and the Solutrean theroy.
Also, most Archeoligist think that the Clovis culture started on the east coast of North America, than spread west, which is another good connection to the Solutreans.
Here is the "Center for the study of the first Americans" web site, http://centerfirstamericans.com/

how much proof did they have when they adopted the alaska route other then what people thought happened to the ice which also was wrong
theroys that people like and that fit their ideas of what happened

why do we need more then they did?
other then we want to be right

[Guy]

how much proof did they have when they adopted the alaska route other then what people thought happened to the ice which also was wrong
theroys that people like and that fit their ideas of what happened

why do we need more then they did?
other then we want to be right

How True ! How True !
I've never been a beliver in the Alaska land bridge theroy, I can't see that much ice, miles thick, just happen to open a door for them to come down to the middle of North America, I believe in the sea routes along the Pacific and the Atlantic alot more.
If you want to watch a good video on the European and North American connecton, buy the video produce by Nova title " The Mystery of The Red Paint People".,
Which claimed in the New England area during prehistoric times, there was a seafaring race from Europe that came over to the New England area, they think they were connected to the Megalithic culture.
Archeoligist found artifacts in the New England area, that were used for deep sea fishing, which shows that the prehistoric people did go out in boats over great distance on the ocean ( Solutrean theory ring a bell )

[Jim Denning]

Instead of repeating you can read all of this

Instead of repeating you can read all of this

this should save some typing

[augustin25]

I read most of it. People seem to want to accept some of the most complicated and far-fetched scenarios out there. There's a reason the only people who buy into Stanford and Bradley's Solutrean hypothesis aren't archaeologists.

[Jim Denning]

[QUOTE=augustin25]I read most of it. People seem to want to accept some of the most complicated and far-fetched scenarios out there. There's a reason the only people who buy into Stanford and Bradley's Solutrean hypothesis aren't archaeologists.[/QUOTE
whats that reason?

have you seee the pbs show

[augustin25]

Yes, I've seen it. A controversial theory makes for good TV, but not good archaeology. I generally think Dennis Stanford is quite knowledgeable and a good archaeologist -that's why many of us are quite baffled by the whole thing. The similarities between Solutrean and Clovis lithics are superficial. For the Solutrean hypothesis to work Solutrean folks would have had to migrate, stop making similar points for a few thousand years, and then suddenly "rediscover" how to make them, resulting in the birth of Clovis points. Sounds feasible

[Jim Denning]

Yes, I've seen it. A controversial theory makes for good TV, but not good archaeology. I generally think Dennis Stanford is quite knowledgeable and a good archaeologist -that's why many of us are quite baffled by the whole thing. The similarities between Solutrean and Clovis lithics are superficial. For the Solutrean hypothesis to work Solutrean folks would have had to migrate, stop making similar points for a few thousand years, and then suddenly "rediscover" how to make them, resulting in the birth of Clovis points. Sounds feasible

unless they lived alot on the ice

i saw a local show in new hampshire it was a dig. the points they found were definatly clovis yet the acrheologists said it migrated from siberia.since the only technology there are blades installed on a bone thats not likely. i asked the ftdna archeologist Theodore G. Schurr 2 yrs ago if he thought the no clovis and no x was a problem. he said it could be but he didnt think so. i have no problem with that except if you hold that standard to the north atlantic
it would make things easier.
the original point is since the thru the ice in alaska isnt there any more and the coast line is probable then why should the possibility of clovis be unbelieveable. i love this people who defend old stuff always say there isnt any evidence yet the first lucy didnt walk up and smack the digger who found her.


one other thing if you are in italy below the ice line and you say i need to migrate would you choose all the way across russia to siberia and then wait an eternity and then find america.or would you migrate across france to maine or maryland the first land along the ice flow where boats and sunning seals would be available. and maybe they went west to better land.
probably to where the anmals liked to live. who knows maybe there is a better thing comming down the road. one things for sure change is always there. i never think we know the last thing.