clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

[Jim Denning]

i sugest you read tristan by plato where he talks about atlantis before you say never flying over bemnuda and the bahamas the see isnt that deep.in those days the water like the bering straights would of been dry

the point is these same people did marvelous things and we usuallyu put them down.i dont underestimate them.i assume they once again beat our expectations

[T E Peterman]

The fact that people COULD do marvelous things & sometimes DID marvelous things, does NOT suggest that people did in fact do ALL marvelous things that they could have done.

Before writing too much more about the lowered sea levels & the Atlantic Ocean, I suggest that you get a good Atlas that shows the ocean depths the whole way across. They would have had to have crossed thousands of miles of deep ocean water. The only path would have been across ice in the far north.

Decades ago (when I was in high school), I use to ponder whether a long lost continent called Atlantis lay in the middle of the Atlantic. It is a nice thought, but there is no evidence for it.

I think the scientific method strengthens the study of ancient origins. True scientists don't jump on the band wagon whenever a pop theory comes along. After data is gathered, scientists first have to question the authenticity of the data. If it holds up to scrutiny, they then ask if existing theories can account for the new data.

Peer reviewed scientific theories change in a conservative way. Decades ago, there was a pop theory that birds are dinosaurs & that dinosaurs were warm blooded. In the beginning, the theory wasn't accepted by very many scientists. As time has passed & more data has become available, including far better fossils, the theory has gained a far more widespread acceptance. The scientists that reject the theory today are in a minority.

Is there any data that a trans-Atlantic migration theory could explain in a better manner than existing theories? Two things were originally suggested:

1. the Clovis-Solutrean cultural link
2. the distribution of X mtDNA

The first could be explained by convergence. The second can be explained by the Siberia/ Beringia/ Alaska link.

Timothy Peterman

[Jim Denning]

Decades ago (when I was in high school), I use to ponder whether a long lost continent called Atlantis lay in the middle of the Atlantic. It is a nice thought, but there is no evidence for it.

I think the scientific method strengthens the study of ancient origins. True scientists don't jump on the band wagon whenever a pop theory comes along. After data is gathered, scientists first have to question the authenticity of the data. If it holds up to scrutiny, they then ask if existing theories can account for the new data.

Peer reviewed scientific theories change in a conservative way. Decades ago, there was a pop theory that birds are dinosaurs & that dinosaurs were warm blooded. In the beginning, the theory wasn't accepted by very many scientists. As time has passed & more data has become available, including far better fossils, the theory has gained a far more widespread acceptance. The scientists that reject the theory today are in a minority.

Is there any data that a trans-Atlantic migration theory could explain in a better manner than existing theories? Two things were originally suggested:

1. the Clovis-Solutrean cultural link
2. the distribution of X mtDNA

The first could be explained by convergence. The second can be explained by the Siberia/ Beringia/ Alaska link.

Timothy Peterman

LOOK the Siberia/ Beringia/ Alaska link doesnt explain anything because the tools are not there. it stymies the therory so much now people are saying the clovis came to europe from america anything but except the opposite and easiest

what has happened to the planet we dont really know but one thing i now is human nature.to explore and to do it the easiest way. both of these would dictate to me why they would head west probably with outposts along the way

about atlantis our knowledge hinders our real ability to what happened geographicly. but tristan is a wonderful guess for a man in greece a series of islands past the pillers of hercuules [gibraltar] forming stepping stones to america cross that island and you see the big ocean . not bad for 600 bc or so give or take a century

i am afraid most of this is way out infront of genetic genealogy as the puzzle come together

[T E Peterman]

The DNA evidence strongly suggests a link between Siberia/ east Asia & Native Americans.

The DNA evidence found thus far dispels any suggestion that Native Americans came from Europe.

On the subject of the Solutrean. New data may have been found since my college days, but back then (1977-81) at Northwestern University, the Solutrean was a major mystery in European prehistory. The Magdalenian culture had been goig for several thousand years. "Out of the blue", Magdalenian disappears for about 1,000 years from sites & is replaced by the Solutrean, which was described as a far more advanced culture. Then, the Solutrean disappears & is replaced by... the Magdalenian again.

What could have caused this anomaly? The most parsimonious explanation is that we are looking at a rapid migration phenomenon. The Solutrean folk moved into western Europe from -somewhere- and pushed the Magdalenian folk to a different location. The Solutrean folk either die out, return to their homeland, or migrate elsewhere & the Magdalenian folk return.

I am pointing this out because, unless there have been discoveries since my college days, you shouldn't look at the Solutrean as an indigenous European phenomenon that explains the Clovis in America. Let's explain the "fish out of water" Solutrean in Europe first.

As I have said before, people COULD have crossed from Europe to America (or visa versa), but there is no evidence that they DID in fact do so -at least until the modern era. Such migrants did NOT leave a DNA trail.

Timothy Peterman

[Jim Denning]

http://www.neara.org/MiscReports/07-07-05.htm

well folks the plot thickens funny thing about scientists they keep finding new things like Orrorin Tugenesis http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Paleoanthropology.html

yet we sit here and base everything on therorys which seem to be more and more like the flat earth
---------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.neara.org/MiscReports/07-07-05.htm

Footprints of ‘First Americans’
Ros Strong

The fast breaking story of the 40,000 year old footprints in Mexico has received even more attention in the press than other reports pertaining to the peopling of the Americas. The second report linked below, by David Keys, who is the Archaeology Correspondent of the Independent, recognizes the far-reaching implications opening up the field for researchers who have so far been stymied by the Clovis-only advocates. At last we talk about the possibility of Australoid peoples being early relatives, and claims in Brazil by Niede Guidon of 50,000 years and by Tom Dillehay in Monte Verde of 33,000 may be taken seriously. He predicts it will "force a total rewrite of humanity's early migrations and is one of the most important archaeological finds of recent decades." I wish George Carter had lived to hear those words.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4650307.stm

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article296886.ece

[Jim Denning]

The DNA evidence strongly suggests a link between Siberia/ east Asia & Native Americans.

The DNA evidence found thus far dispels any suggestion that Native Americans came from Europe.

Timothy Peterman

at the conference i asked terry if the absence of x in siberia and the lack of tools was of concern to him
he replyed it was concerning and something to think about [not a quote ]


maybe the x came across the atlantic with clovis tools ?

[seridia]

Absence of X in Siberia

mtDNA of haplogroup X may not be found in the extreme east of Siberia, however it is found in Asia. All of the haplogroups that are found in current Native American Populations were found in a small population of people in west central Asia (around Mongolia). It's not too much of a stretch to suggest that this small population could have broken off and migrated into North America with the other haplogroups and just maintained its minority status.

[Eternitat]

Now, did EVERYONE who have haplogroup A belong to that original population?

Or did the original children of Aiyana (name given by David Sykes in "The 7 Daughters of Eve) perhaps spread out and some migrate to some other places? Apparently Haplogroup A originated somewhere near the Caucasus Mountains according to the Genographic Map, and was an offshoot of N, which also gave origin to R (the Europe mother), X, and possibly B.

[Jim Denning]

The migration happened from both siberia and europe across the north atlantic
and i bet several other ways. who are we to presume we know what really know what happened.
isnt that why we do this at least one reason we do it

[M.O'Connor]

There are a lots of interesting ideas floating around.
Like most things they start with many questions, which spawn many more questions.

The oldest site found so far in Eastern Canada is near Debert, Nova Scotia Canada. There is a Paleo site estimated 10,000 yrs old.

http://museum.gov.ns.ca/places/debert/debert.htm

This type of projectile point were found a little further north in eastern Prince Edward Island near a place called Basin Head. At the time of this local occupation, the area was estimated to have an Arctic Tundra-like appearance.

The most common current idea I have found on the net is that during the last Glacial Max the sea levels were some 400 feet lower than today. Here is a fishing map which shows some of the submerged Atlantic Canada features that may have been high and dry at Glacial Max.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flemish_cap.jpg

How close was the ancient coast of Europe then?

Newfoundland had glaciation, maybe not the Grand Banks?

http://www.heritage.nf.ca/aboriginal/prehist.html

How fast were the Ocean currents travelling during the Glacial Max? Ocean currents may have flowed a little different during the peak of the last ice age.

How much more of the Azores were high and dry?...or any unknown submerged islands or coast-line off Spain/Portugal?..Africa?.

England/Ireland, were supposedly part of main-land Europe during the last ice age. http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/

Looking at the Iceage Europe map shows possible submerged island features off Spain.

I believe humans existed on/near the now submerged Grand Banks of Newfoundland. Fishermen may have already hauled up stone objects like they have in Nova Scotia's waters.

Provided the Grand Banks were high and dry
The warmer open waters of the gulf stream would encourage life.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
(My understanding)
There have been questionable unexplained human remains found in the Americas that are still being debated and hopefully scientifically studied. We are still only at the discovery stage of this and I find science has not found enough answers yet.

In cases, local Native Indian Tribes claim ancient remains as their ancestors. Some Native groups want to bury the remains in cultural form without scientific study. The remains don't have to be proven to be scientificaly related to the claimers. They just have to be older than Columbus to be considered Native Americans. You probably have heard that there is evidence the Vikings were around Canada's east coast well before Columbus set sail. The biggest injustice I see is the remains could be buried under the wrong ceremony with the wrong people.
In the USA if a 1000 yr old viking burial was found in New England..the remains could end up being buried in a Native Indian Ceremony. That's a little extreme..but where do we draw the line with affiliation? If the Iceman was shown scientificaly to have grown up in Northern Europe should his remains then have gone to a museum in the Austia area?

Kennewick Man http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseu.../kman_home.htm

Spirit Cave Man(Nevada) Buhl Woman(Idaho)...others...

http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/spiritman.html

[Jim Denning]

In the USA if a 1000 yr old viking burial was found in New England..the remains could end up being buried in a Native Indian Ceremony. That's a little extreme..but where do we draw the line with affiliation? If the Iceman was shown scientificaly to have grown up in Northern Europe should his remains then have gone to a museum in the Austia area?

thanks
this was very interesting
scientists found that body in the wisconsin illinois area and they swore it was caucasian. they couldnt test it and has to put it back in the bank what a shame. what if he was a 15,000 yr old H

[Noaide]

1 000 year old Viking burial in New England? Isnt that like on the other side of Canada, meaning the west side? I do not think he was viking, but maybe he came from east OR his skull was a natural variation within his people that look caucasion.

Another point, in the far north of Norway at the small island group Svalbard quite isolated from any main landbass there live raindeers that nobody bring up there. How do a plant eating animal manage to cross so huge expansion of frozen ocean with no food at all?

By the way I am from northern Scandinavia and get hit on maternal haplogroup D, a native american haplogroup. My great grandmother was 100% Saami.

[dentate]

mtDNA D is common in Siberia and Northeast Asia, which is likely where you get yours.

[Hetware]

1 000 year old Viking burial in New England? Isnt that like on the other side of Canada, meaning the west side? I do not think he was viking, but maybe he came from east OR his skull was a natural variation within his people that look caucasion.

I'm pretty sure that was a hypothetical example to describe the absurdity of the current laws regarding the treatment of human remains in the US. New England is on the Atlantic Seaboard. There are some structures which suggest the presence of Europeans from the megalithic culture. As for "Vikings", there is absolutely solid proof of a Norse presence in Newfoundland. The extent of that presence is not fully known. There has been speculation that there was a far more substantial presence than what has been discovered.

Another point, in the far north of Norway at the small island group Svalbard quite isolated from any main landbass there live raindeers that nobody bring up there. How do a plant eating animal manage to cross so huge expansion of frozen ocean with no food at all?

How far is that? If the animals were lost, and there was a solid ice sheet to walk on, they may have gone quite a long distance with no food. The might also have been stuck on a floating "ice barge".

By the way I am from northern Scandinavia and get hit on maternal haplogroup D, a native american haplogroup. My great grandmother was 100% Saami.

That is interesting.

[Jim Denning]

I'm pretty sure that was a hypothetical example to describe the absurdity of the current laws regarding the treatment of human remains in the US. New England is on the Atlantic Seaboard. There are some structures which suggest the presence of Europeans from the megalithic culture. As for "Vikings", there is absolutely solid proof of a Norse presence in Newfoundland. The extent of that presence is not fully known. There has been speculation that there was a far more substantial presence than what has been discovered.



How far is that? If the animals were lost, and there was a solid ice sheet to walk on, they may have gone quite a long distance with no food. The might also have been stuck on a floating "ice barge".



That is interesting.

i sugest you keep a very open mind and do some reading.skelitons [plural] have been found and a great deal of evidence outside of the clovis argument that european and mediteranians people have been here.


i dont think he made it up at all