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clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Absence of X in Siberia

    mtDNA of haplogroup X may not be found in the extreme east of Siberia, however it is found in Asia. All of the haplogroups that are found in current Native American Populations were found in a small population of people in west central Asia (around Mongolia). It's not too much of a stretch to suggest that this small population could have broken off and migrated into North America with the other haplogroups and just maintained its minority status.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by T E Peterman
    The DNA evidence strongly suggests a link between Siberia/ east Asia & Native Americans.

    The DNA evidence found thus far dispels any suggestion that Native Americans came from Europe.

    Timothy Peterman

    at the conference i asked terry if the absence of x in siberia and the lack of tools was of concern to him
    he replyed it was concerning and something to think about [not a quote ]


    maybe the x came across the atlantic with clovis tools ?

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    http://www.neara.org/MiscReports/07-07-05.htm

    well folks the plot thickens funny thing about scientists they keep finding new things like Orrorin Tugenesis http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Paleoanthropology.html

    yet we sit here and base everything on therorys which seem to be more and more like the flat earth
    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    http://www.neara.org/MiscReports/07-07-05.htm
    Footprints of ‘First Americans’
    Ros Strong

    The fast breaking story of the 40,000 year old footprints in Mexico has received even more attention in the press than other reports pertaining to the peopling of the Americas. The second report linked below, by David Keys, who is the Archaeology Correspondent of the Independent, recognizes the far-reaching implications opening up the field for researchers who have so far been stymied by the Clovis-only advocates. At last we talk about the possibility of Australoid peoples being early relatives, and claims in Brazil by Niede Guidon of 50,000 years and by Tom Dillehay in Monte Verde of 33,000 may be taken seriously. He predicts it will "force a total rewrite of humanity's early migrations and is one of the most important archaeological finds of recent decades." I wish George Carter had lived to hear those words.



    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4650307.stm



    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle296886.ece
    Last edited by Jim Denning; 11 November 2005, 04:13 PM.

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    The DNA evidence strongly suggests a link between Siberia/ east Asia & Native Americans.

    The DNA evidence found thus far dispels any suggestion that Native Americans came from Europe.

    On the subject of the Solutrean. New data may have been found since my college days, but back then (1977-81) at Northwestern University, the Solutrean was a major mystery in European prehistory. The Magdalenian culture had been goig for several thousand years. "Out of the blue", Magdalenian disappears for about 1,000 years from sites & is replaced by the Solutrean, which was described as a far more advanced culture. Then, the Solutrean disappears & is replaced by... the Magdalenian again.

    What could have caused this anomaly? The most parsimonious explanation is that we are looking at a rapid migration phenomenon. The Solutrean folk moved into western Europe from -somewhere- and pushed the Magdalenian folk to a different location. The Solutrean folk either die out, return to their homeland, or migrate elsewhere & the Magdalenian folk return.

    I am pointing this out because, unless there have been discoveries since my college days, you shouldn't look at the Solutrean as an indigenous European phenomenon that explains the Clovis in America. Let's explain the "fish out of water" Solutrean in Europe first.

    As I have said before, people COULD have crossed from Europe to America (or visa versa), but there is no evidence that they DID in fact do so -at least until the modern era. Such migrants did NOT leave a DNA trail.

    Timothy Peterman

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by T E Peterman
    Decades ago (when I was in high school), I use to ponder whether a long lost continent called Atlantis lay in the middle of the Atlantic. It is a nice thought, but there is no evidence for it.

    I think the scientific method strengthens the study of ancient origins. True scientists don't jump on the band wagon whenever a pop theory comes along. After data is gathered, scientists first have to question the authenticity of the data. If it holds up to scrutiny, they then ask if existing theories can account for the new data.

    Peer reviewed scientific theories change in a conservative way. Decades ago, there was a pop theory that birds are dinosaurs & that dinosaurs were warm blooded. In the beginning, the theory wasn't accepted by very many scientists. As time has passed & more data has become available, including far better fossils, the theory has gained a far more widespread acceptance. The scientists that reject the theory today are in a minority.

    Is there any data that a trans-Atlantic migration theory could explain in a better manner than existing theories? Two things were originally suggested:

    1. the Clovis-Solutrean cultural link
    2. the distribution of X mtDNA

    The first could be explained by convergence. The second can be explained by the Siberia/ Beringia/ Alaska link.

    Timothy Peterman
    LOOK the Siberia/ Beringia/ Alaska link doesnt explain anything because the tools are not there. it stymies the therory so much now people are saying the clovis came to europe from america anything but except the opposite and easiest

    what has happened to the planet we dont really know but one thing i now is human nature.to explore and to do it the easiest way. both of these would dictate to me why they would head west probably with outposts along the way

    about atlantis our knowledge hinders our real ability to what happened geographicly. but tristan is a wonderful guess for a man in greece a series of islands past the pillers of hercuules [gibraltar] forming stepping stones to america cross that island and you see the big ocean . not bad for 600 bc or so give or take a century

    i am afraid most of this is way out infront of genetic genealogy as the puzzle come together

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    The fact that people COULD do marvelous things & sometimes DID marvelous things, does NOT suggest that people did in fact do ALL marvelous things that they could have done.

    Before writing too much more about the lowered sea levels & the Atlantic Ocean, I suggest that you get a good Atlas that shows the ocean depths the whole way across. They would have had to have crossed thousands of miles of deep ocean water. The only path would have been across ice in the far north.

    Decades ago (when I was in high school), I use to ponder whether a long lost continent called Atlantis lay in the middle of the Atlantic. It is a nice thought, but there is no evidence for it.

    I think the scientific method strengthens the study of ancient origins. True scientists don't jump on the band wagon whenever a pop theory comes along. After data is gathered, scientists first have to question the authenticity of the data. If it holds up to scrutiny, they then ask if existing theories can account for the new data.

    Peer reviewed scientific theories change in a conservative way. Decades ago, there was a pop theory that birds are dinosaurs & that dinosaurs were warm blooded. In the beginning, the theory wasn't accepted by very many scientists. As time has passed & more data has become available, including far better fossils, the theory has gained a far more widespread acceptance. The scientists that reject the theory today are in a minority.

    Is there any data that a trans-Atlantic migration theory could explain in a better manner than existing theories? Two things were originally suggested:

    1. the Clovis-Solutrean cultural link
    2. the distribution of X mtDNA

    The first could be explained by convergence. The second can be explained by the Siberia/ Beringia/ Alaska link.

    Timothy Peterman

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    i sugest you read tristan by plato where he talks about atlantis before you say never flying over bemnuda and the bahamas the see isnt that deep.in those days the water like the bering straights would of been dry

    the point is these same people did marvelous things and we usuallyu put them down.i dont underestimate them.i assume they once again beat our expectations

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    OK. So there are a few islands. But in the Atlantic, they are far & few between. The odds of any of them being at the edge of the pack ice, where they would be found, would be rather low. I think it is doubtful that in random migrations on the ice, the technological know-how would have lasted for generations.

    The one thing that could strengthen the theory would be the discovery that there were routine large mammal migrations from Europe to North America. If the hunters were following the herds & if the herds migrated back and forth between the two continents routinely, a condition would exist for rapid human migration to the New World from Europe (or visa versa). But this contains a lot of IFs.

    Perhaps DNA might someday verify the existence of mammals (other than humans) in the eastern part of the US or Canada that show a recent divergence from European varieties that aren't found in Asia.

    The bottom line is that the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of those presenting an alternate theory. We need to be careful & make certain that we don't go from saying that something "could have" happened to saying that something "did" happen.

    Timothy Peterman

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    THERE ARE NO ROCK OUTCROPS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN.
    Well, actually there are, they're called islands. Greenland and Iceland come to mind, also there may well be more than we know if the sea level has risen as much as they say. The Vikings made it to Iceland (Eric the Red) then on to Greenland (Lief Ericson) from Greenland it's a short hop to Canada.

    I don't think anyone is saying THEY DEFINETLY MADE THE EAST TO WEST CROSSING OF THE ALANTIC! I think what is trying to be said is that we should remain open to the possibility that they did. I don't think that's so much to ask.

    obtoo

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    X is supposed not to have gone east but west don
    last nights show indicated the cherry site in nc is overlapping with Solutrean and clovis. I can see them having settlements alone the ice even trade of some kind based on people going both ways.
    Every time we make these people dumb they supprize us aka the ice man

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  • Don Potter
    replied
    DNA evidence ("proof&quot

    Since this is a DNA forum, is there any DNA evidence of the Europe to the Americas theory other than the mtDNA haplogroup X being in both places? I am sorry that I did not get a chance to see the PBS or NOVA shows about this.
    Don Potter Jr

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  • T E Peterman
    replied
    Scientists tend to be conservative & skeptical of new theories that are thrown together because of the nature of the scientific method. The burden of proof falls on those that are suggesting an alternative theory. It must do a better job of explaining ALL relevant data than the predecessor theory.

    All scientific theories are peer reviewed; this means that other scientists try to find holes in the theory rather than blindly accepting it because it seems good at the moment. This strengthens the process of science.

    As far as my comments about flint-knapping, my point was that:

    1. Assuming people did travel across the Atlantic 18,000 years ago, they probably didn't do it in a single generation. They would have slowly followed the game (seals?) across the pack ice.

    2. The hypothetical hunters may have carried tools with them, but they would NOT have had an opportunity to take a refresher course on flint knapping techniques. THERE ARE NO ROCK OUTCROPS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN.

    3. Therefore, the technique would have been lost between Europe and America. A new technique would been invented in North America. I doubt it would have been similar.

    We can not rely on a superficial resemblance between Solutrean & Clovis to suggest a transatlantic migration.

    Timothy Peterman

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by rudeboy
    This is off the coast. How much pack ice are there out in the open ocean? Even if there were, the chances of encountering ice and seals on them.. they'd starve to death.


    You don't act like you are 56, and just who is putting out "cow waste"? No one is proclaiming to have all the answers but to throw up any "maybe" and expect others to nod at it is pretty unreasonable. How can we get anywhere if we don't weigh on which is more reasonable but just followed personal sentiments?

    Anyway, I have no wish to further this. I simply added what I knew in this thread because it may be helpful; didn't come in to debate with sentiments.
    pbs is saying it along with more and more people all day long
    history is full of scientists downplaying new scientific finds that tear down their old therory. egad the finder of the piltdown man never gave up on it even well after it was found to be a fraud.

    its not in the nature to except new things

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    tonite american scientific pbs clovis follow up show

    tonite american scientific pbs clovis follow up show

    actually this was on before the nova show last year and doews a better job on alot of it

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by T E Peterman
    A brief observation regarding seals on ice flows. Let's say that Solutrean folk did follow the seals on the ice flows & after a few generations made in, quite by accident, to America. They would have lost their "unique" technological "know-how" -one thing that can't be found on ice is a good supply of rock for flint knapping.

    They would have had to re-invent the blade after getting to America & odds are, Clovis would in no way resemble the Solutrean.

    Earlier, I explored the possibility of an Atlantic crossing, but consider this to be highly unlikely. There is no genetic evidence for such a crossing that can't be explained at least as good or better by the Siberia-Beringia bridge.

    Timothy Peterman


    the tools were very reusable and when the ice melted alot went into water

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