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clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

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  • Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    where did they come from this weeks NOVA
    I have the NOVA special on DVD, "America's Stone Age Explorers" and Scientific American ,"Coming Into America", both are very interesting to watch.
    Both specials talk abut the Solutrean possibilty.
    My thought's on this is I believe the Solutreans could have came to America and are connected to the Clovis culture.
    Dr.Dennis Stanford, who is on both DVD specials, is writing a book about his Solutrean-Clovis possibilty, the University of California Press will print the book.
    I'm not sure when it will be out, I keep checking the web, but I've found no date yet.
    Dr.Dennis Stanford and Dr.Bruce Bradley are the Archeoligist that got this theroy started , they check out stone weapons in Russia, and nothing looked like Clovis, Dr.Bruce Bradley was going thru a book on the Solutrean culture one day, when he saw some pictures of Solutrean stone weapons, and to him they looked close to Clovis, Solutrean flint knappers knapped their spear points bi-facial, just like Clovis, which means they worked both sides of the stone spearpoint.
    I know we need more proof than this to say there is a connection, but it's a start.
    I'm a member of the "Center for the Study of the First Americans" and this group is the one to join, if you want to keep up with the latest news on the Clovis culture and the Solutrean theroy.
    Also, most Archeoligist think that the Clovis culture started on the east coast of North America, than spread west, which is another good connection to the Solutreans.
    Here is the "Center for the study of the first Americans" web site, http://centerfirstamericans.com/

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  • tomcat
    replied
    Originally posted by Hetware
    ..As for "Vikings", there is absolutely solid proof of a Norse presence in Newfoundland. The extent of that presence is not fully known. There has been speculation that there was a far more substantial presence than what has been discovered.....
    I believe the evidence of L'Anse aux Meduse is no longer open to serious question - Norse sod-built habitations and evidence of the smelting of bog iron ...

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  • Downer101
    replied
    Originally posted by dentate
    Hey wait a minute. The M45 mutation (P haplogroup), which I just found out runs in the male line of my maternal grandfather, marks a population that gave rise to both Q and R. The time depth is 30,000 years. More than sufficient to make this Central Asian/Siberian group a possible ancestor to both Europeans and many Amerinds. Seems logical that if you find related groups at remote sites from each other, either they migrated a long way, or they were once everywhere in between and have since disappeared from the intermediate areas. The latter is going to be a more likely explanation in most cases than fantastic perimeter trips around entire continents followed by transoceanic voyages into the unknown 20,000 years ago.

    Jeff Schweitzer
    Not all Europeans only ones with the R haplogroup types and Q if there are any.. I is from the Middle Eastern Gravettian culture. In history, the Ameridinians/Native Americans didn't need to have a drastic advance in technology and culture. So technically speaking, the Native American's and European's M45 ancestor had roughly the same culture as the modern Native American (preferably Inuit) tribes. The Ameridinians are the European's closest relatives..

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  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    Water levels is what I was wondering about. Atlantis couldn't be more than 400 ft below sea-level. Volcanos can leave a rim but i doubt they'd wipe out a continent.

    On the second map the split at the Azores which runs up past Spain looks menacing. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

    Still a submerged continent no more than 300-400 feet below sea level shouldn't be too hard to map out with todays tech stuff. A few valcanos shouldn't have erase the thing totally.

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    The ice-Age peak had seas estimated to be 400 ft below what they are today. the Grand Banks of NFLD would have been a hundred feet above sea level. Hard to imagine.

    If you want to connect Clovis with Europe maybe
    they stopped at the Grand Banks . The Azores is halfway to Spain from there.

    From the Grand Banks it's south to Boston and beyond, and nicer weather.
    Last edited by M.O'Connor; 5 February 2006, 05:17 PM.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by M.O'Connor
    I was curious about coastlines and submerged landscapes which disappeared with the glacial melt.

    I found this site but i'm going to keep searching for a better site. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

    My curiosity about the tale of Atlantis being beyong the Pillars of Hercules.
    (If Atlantis is beyond Spain) then there should be submerged landscapes in the Atlantic. (if one looks at that idea)

    What I am looking for is ocean bottom topography of the area in the Atlantic Ocean outside of Spain/Gibraltar.

    remember ice age ocean levels and sudden changes due to volcanos and stuff like that. we dont know everything about whats happened to this earth.

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  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    I was curious about coastlines and submerged landscapes which disappeared with the glacial melt.

    I found this site but i'm going to keep searching for a better site. http://topex.ucsd.edu/marine_topo/globe.html

    My curiosity about the tale of Atlantis being beyong the Pillars of Hercules.
    (If Atlantis is beyond Spain) then there should be submerged landscapes in the Atlantic. (if one looks at that idea)

    What I am looking for is ocean bottom topography of the area in the Atlantic Ocean outside of Spain/Gibraltar.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hetware
    replied
    Originally posted by Jim Denning
    i sugest you keep a very open mind and do some reading.skelitons [plural] have been found and a great deal of evidence outside of the clovis argument that european and mediteranians people have been here.


    i dont think he made it up at all

    "In the USA if a 1000 yr old viking burial was found in New England..the remains could end up being buried in a Native Indian Ceremony. That's a little extreme..but where do we draw the line with affiliation?"

    The specific case of a "viking burial" was hypothetical. I am aware of the Penion Woman, the Kennewick Man, etc. Interestingly, the suggestion that the Na Dene AMH came from Siberia via the Berring land bridge seems to suggest those people whould not have been as morphologically similar to Europeans as the more ancient and genetically distant inhabitants.

    The point the OP was trying to make is that we have absurd "feel-good" laws in the US which prevent scientific investigation into matters such as whether human remains are closely related to other populations on the planet, European or not.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by Hetware
    I'm pretty sure that was a hypothetical example to describe the absurdity of the current laws regarding the treatment of human remains in the US. New England is on the Atlantic Seaboard. There are some structures which suggest the presence of Europeans from the megalithic culture. As for "Vikings", there is absolutely solid proof of a Norse presence in Newfoundland. The extent of that presence is not fully known. There has been speculation that there was a far more substantial presence than what has been discovered.



    How far is that? If the animals were lost, and there was a solid ice sheet to walk on, they may have gone quite a long distance with no food. The might also have been stuck on a floating "ice barge".



    That is interesting.

    i sugest you keep a very open mind and do some reading.skelitons [plural] have been found and a great deal of evidence outside of the clovis argument that european and mediteranians people have been here.


    i dont think he made it up at all

    Leave a comment:


  • Hetware
    replied
    Originally posted by Noaide
    1 000 year old Viking burial in New England? Isnt that like on the other side of Canada, meaning the west side? I do not think he was viking, but maybe he came from east OR his skull was a natural variation within his people that look caucasion.
    I'm pretty sure that was a hypothetical example to describe the absurdity of the current laws regarding the treatment of human remains in the US. New England is on the Atlantic Seaboard. There are some structures which suggest the presence of Europeans from the megalithic culture. As for "Vikings", there is absolutely solid proof of a Norse presence in Newfoundland. The extent of that presence is not fully known. There has been speculation that there was a far more substantial presence than what has been discovered.

    Originally posted by Noaide
    Another point, in the far north of Norway at the small island group Svalbard quite isolated from any main landbass there live raindeers that nobody bring up there. How do a plant eating animal manage to cross so huge expansion of frozen ocean with no food at all?
    How far is that? If the animals were lost, and there was a solid ice sheet to walk on, they may have gone quite a long distance with no food. The might also have been stuck on a floating "ice barge".

    Originally posted by Noaide
    By the way I am from northern Scandinavia and get hit on maternal haplogroup D, a native american haplogroup. My great grandmother was 100% Saami.
    That is interesting.

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  • dentate
    replied
    mtDNA D is common in Siberia and Northeast Asia, which is likely where you get yours.

    Leave a comment:


  • Noaide
    replied
    1 000 year old Viking burial in New England? Isnt that like on the other side of Canada, meaning the west side? I do not think he was viking, but maybe he came from east OR his skull was a natural variation within his people that look caucasion.

    Another point, in the far north of Norway at the small island group Svalbard quite isolated from any main landbass there live raindeers that nobody bring up there. How do a plant eating animal manage to cross so huge expansion of frozen ocean with no food at all?

    By the way I am from northern Scandinavia and get hit on maternal haplogroup D, a native american haplogroup. My great grandmother was 100% Saami.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Denning
    replied
    Originally posted by M.O'Connor
    In the USA if a 1000 yr old viking burial was found in New England..the remains could end up being buried in a Native Indian Ceremony. That's a little extreme..but where do we draw the line with affiliation? If the Iceman was shown scientificaly to have grown up in Northern Europe should his remains then have gone to a museum in the Austia area?
    thanks
    this was very interesting
    scientists found that body in the wisconsin illinois area and they swore it was caucasian. they couldnt test it and has to put it back in the bank what a shame. what if he was a 15,000 yr old H

    Leave a comment:


  • M.O'Connor
    replied
    There are a lots of interesting ideas floating around.
    Like most things they start with many questions, which spawn many more questions.

    The oldest site found so far in Eastern Canada is near Debert, Nova Scotia Canada. There is a Paleo site estimated 10,000 yrs old.

    http://museum.gov.ns.ca/places/debert/debert.htm

    This type of projectile point were found a little further north in eastern Prince Edward Island near a place called Basin Head. At the time of this local occupation, the area was estimated to have an Arctic Tundra-like appearance.

    The most common current idea I have found on the net is that during the last Glacial Max the sea levels were some 400 feet lower than today. Here is a fishing map which shows some of the submerged Atlantic Canada features that may have been high and dry at Glacial Max.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flemish_cap.jpg

    How close was the ancient coast of Europe then?

    Newfoundland had glaciation, maybe not the Grand Banks?
    http://www.heritage.nf.ca/aboriginal/prehist.html

    How fast were the Ocean currents travelling during the Glacial Max? Ocean currents may have flowed a little different during the peak of the last ice age.

    How much more of the Azores were high and dry?...or any unknown submerged islands or coast-line off Spain/Portugal?..Africa?.

    England/Ireland, were supposedly part of main-land Europe during the last ice age. http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/

    Looking at the Iceage Europe map shows possible submerged island features off Spain.

    I believe humans existed on/near the now submerged Grand Banks of Newfoundland. Fishermen may have already hauled up stone objects like they have in Nova Scotia's waters.

    Provided the Grand Banks were high and dry
    The warmer open waters of the gulf stream would encourage life.

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
    (My understanding)
    There have been questionable unexplained human remains found in the Americas that are still being debated and hopefully scientifically studied. We are still only at the discovery stage of this and I find science has not found enough answers yet.

    In cases, local Native Indian Tribes claim ancient remains as their ancestors. Some Native groups want to bury the remains in cultural form without scientific study. The remains don't have to be proven to be scientificaly related to the claimers. They just have to be older than Columbus to be considered Native Americans. You probably have heard that there is evidence the Vikings were around Canada's east coast well before Columbus set sail. The biggest injustice I see is the remains could be buried under the wrong ceremony with the wrong people.
    In the USA if a 1000 yr old viking burial was found in New England..the remains could end up being buried in a Native Indian Ceremony. That's a little extreme..but where do we draw the line with affiliation? If the Iceman was shown scientificaly to have grown up in Northern Europe should his remains then have gone to a museum in the Austia area?

    Kennewick Man http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseu.../kman_home.htm

    Spirit Cave Man(Nevada) Buhl Woman(Idaho)...others...
    http://www.cabrillo.edu/~crsmith/spiritman.html
    Last edited by M.O'Connor; 1 January 2006, 01:22 PM.

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  • Jim Denning
    replied
    The migration happened from both siberia and europe across the north atlantic
    and i bet several other ways. who are we to presume we know what really know what happened.
    isnt that why we do this at least one reason we do it

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  • Eternitat
    replied
    Now, did EVERYONE who have haplogroup A belong to that original population?

    Or did the original children of Aiyana (name given by David Sykes in "The 7 Daughters of Eve) perhaps spread out and some migrate to some other places? Apparently Haplogroup A originated somewhere near the Caucasus Mountains according to the Genographic Map, and was an offshoot of N, which also gave origin to R (the Europe mother), X, and possibly B.

    Leave a comment:

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