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clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

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  • #16
    Game don't go on ice flows. Nothing grows on them for games to eat and graze upon.
    Excuse me for asking but I've seen this posted around here a couple of times and I don't understand it. Now of course nothing grows on the ice flows. Seals however do live on ice flows and hunt fish do they not? Is that not how the Inuit survived for so long hunting the seals, whales and fishing?

    And how would they survive on the ocean, by fishing?
    Why not, the Inuit do, don't they?

    obtoo

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    • #17
      Originally posted by rudeboy
      "Maybe"'s don't a logical, accepted theory make. The Beringia crossing is established because genetics, archaeology (post-Clovis), and osteology (the Native American is osteologically a "Mongoloid" in skull and in skeletal traits as well as dental morphology) ties the Americas to Beringia.
      The way you put it, it seems you think Native Americans are paleo-Europeans. It's all sentiments, as I said.

      SHHSSSSS be quite do you hear the sound of an established genetics, archaeology and osteology accepted theory slipping away
      i do

      another case of genetics, archaeology which is maybe 20 yrs old having all the facts.i dont think so!!

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jim Denning
        LOOK AT THE MAP FTDNA SENDS TO H'S AND X'S thats what they say happened but it doesnt make sence unless you want it to fit a set therory

        look at one time the ebb and flow was a set documtted therory of facts
        we know what happened there. you see what you want to see. thats the history of science. people who find new things are attacked.until the evidence is so strong the old therory collapses. sit back and watch the inevitable.
        the funniest thing is scientists as bright as they are, usually never see it
        What does H have to do with anything we are talking about? The Native American X isn't even the same type as ones found in Europe. There are missing nods in X and it looks like it could be as old as 50,000 years, when most of the world weren't populated yet.
        Originally posted by obtoo
        Excuse me for asking but I've seen this posted around here a couple of times and I don't understand it. Now of course nothing grows on the ice flows. Seals however do live on ice flows and hunt fish do they not? Is that not how the Inuit survived for so long hunting the seals, whales and fishing?


        Why not, the Inuit do, don't they?

        obtoo
        No, seals don't live on ice flow, and neither do Inuits. They all live by the coast. What you are proposing has no evidence. Might as well propose that they came on an asteroid.
        Originally posted by Jim Denning
        SHHSSSSS be quite do you hear the sound of an established genetics, archaeology and osteology accepted theory slipping away
        i do

        another case of genetics, archaeology which is maybe 20 yrs old having all the facts.i dont think so!!
        What is this post about? Real mature. How old are you?
        So, you are saying Native Americans are paleo-Europeans?
        No, all of it is recent. In fact your Kennewick Man and mtDNA X connection to Europe have already been disproven by studies within the last 5 years. There are some links on my forum.

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        • #19
          No, seals don't live on ice flow, and neither do Inuits. They all live by the coast. What you are proposing has no evidence.
          Proposing? I thought I was asking a question, my bad. It is certain that the inuit live on the coast and that the seals mate on the coast and have there pups there. Still the seals CAN be found on ice flows as well while they're out hunting fish. If the seals weren't on the ice flows why would the Inuit go hunting there in their kayak's? I took the liberty of copying this quote for you that talks about the inuit hunting grounds:
          The main hunting ground was the pack ice. Currents and wind separate the ice floes, which may be three to seven feet thick, or pile them on top of each other. Where the cracks form, we find the migration straits of the polar whales, which must surface to breathe. Seals and walruses need the ice floes to rest as well as the water to hunt and feed.
          It came from this page if you want to check it out yourself:
          http://www.bambusspiele.de/spiele/nanuuk/e_nunavut.htm

          You might want to read the page, you may be shocked to learn just how far the inuit roam from their home while hunting.

          obtoo

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          • #20
            I AM 56 how about you

            old enough to see COW WASTE WHEN I SEE IT

            my 21 yr old bio major son says any scientist who thinks he has all the answers isnt a scientist i agree

            Comment


            • #21
              A brief observation regarding seals on ice flows. Let's say that Solutrean folk did follow the seals on the ice flows & after a few generations made in, quite by accident, to America. They would have lost their "unique" technological "know-how" -one thing that can't be found on ice is a good supply of rock for flint knapping.

              They would have had to re-invent the blade after getting to America & odds are, Clovis would in no way resemble the Solutrean.

              Earlier, I explored the possibility of an Atlantic crossing, but consider this to be highly unlikely. There is no genetic evidence for such a crossing that can't be explained at least as good or better by the Siberia-Beringia bridge.

              Timothy Peterman

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              • #22
                Originally posted by obtoo
                Proposing? I thought I was asking a question, my bad. It is certain that the inuit live on the coast and that the seals mate on the coast and have there pups there. Still the seals CAN be found on ice flows as well while they're out hunting fish. If the seals weren't on the ice flows why would the Inuit go hunting there in their kayak's? I took the liberty of copying this quote for you that talks about the inuit hunting grounds:

                It came from this page if you want to check it out yourself:
                http://www.bambusspiele.de/spiele/nanuuk/e_nunavut.htm

                You might want to read the page, you may be shocked to learn just how far the inuit roam from their home while hunting.

                obtoo
                This is off the coast. How much pack ice are there out in the open ocean? Even if there were, the chances of encountering ice and seals on them.. they'd starve to death.

                Originally posted by Jim Denning
                I AM 56 how about you

                old enough to see COW WASTE WHEN I SEE IT

                my 21 yr old bio major son says any scientist who thinks he has all the answers isnt a scientist i agree
                You don't act like you are 56, and just who is putting out "cow waste"? No one is proclaiming to have all the answers but to throw up any "maybe" and expect others to nod at it is pretty unreasonable. How can we get anywhere if we don't weigh on which is more reasonable but just followed personal sentiments?

                Anyway, I have no wish to further this. I simply added what I knew in this thread because it may be helpful; didn't come in to debate with sentiments.
                Last edited by rudeboy; 31 May 2005, 01:03 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by T E Peterman
                  A brief observation regarding seals on ice flows. Let's say that Solutrean folk did follow the seals on the ice flows & after a few generations made in, quite by accident, to America. They would have lost their "unique" technological "know-how" -one thing that can't be found on ice is a good supply of rock for flint knapping.

                  They would have had to re-invent the blade after getting to America & odds are, Clovis would in no way resemble the Solutrean.

                  Earlier, I explored the possibility of an Atlantic crossing, but consider this to be highly unlikely. There is no genetic evidence for such a crossing that can't be explained at least as good or better by the Siberia-Beringia bridge.

                  Timothy Peterman


                  the tools were very reusable and when the ice melted alot went into water

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                  • #24
                    tonite american scientific pbs clovis follow up show

                    tonite american scientific pbs clovis follow up show

                    actually this was on before the nova show last year and doews a better job on alot of it

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rudeboy
                      This is off the coast. How much pack ice are there out in the open ocean? Even if there were, the chances of encountering ice and seals on them.. they'd starve to death.


                      You don't act like you are 56, and just who is putting out "cow waste"? No one is proclaiming to have all the answers but to throw up any "maybe" and expect others to nod at it is pretty unreasonable. How can we get anywhere if we don't weigh on which is more reasonable but just followed personal sentiments?

                      Anyway, I have no wish to further this. I simply added what I knew in this thread because it may be helpful; didn't come in to debate with sentiments.
                      pbs is saying it along with more and more people all day long
                      history is full of scientists downplaying new scientific finds that tear down their old therory. egad the finder of the piltdown man never gave up on it even well after it was found to be a fraud.

                      its not in the nature to except new things

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Scientists tend to be conservative & skeptical of new theories that are thrown together because of the nature of the scientific method. The burden of proof falls on those that are suggesting an alternative theory. It must do a better job of explaining ALL relevant data than the predecessor theory.

                        All scientific theories are peer reviewed; this means that other scientists try to find holes in the theory rather than blindly accepting it because it seems good at the moment. This strengthens the process of science.

                        As far as my comments about flint-knapping, my point was that:

                        1. Assuming people did travel across the Atlantic 18,000 years ago, they probably didn't do it in a single generation. They would have slowly followed the game (seals?) across the pack ice.

                        2. The hypothetical hunters may have carried tools with them, but they would NOT have had an opportunity to take a refresher course on flint knapping techniques. THERE ARE NO ROCK OUTCROPS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN.

                        3. Therefore, the technique would have been lost between Europe and America. A new technique would been invented in North America. I doubt it would have been similar.

                        We can not rely on a superficial resemblance between Solutrean & Clovis to suggest a transatlantic migration.

                        Timothy Peterman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          DNA evidence ("proof&quot

                          Since this is a DNA forum, is there any DNA evidence of the Europe to the Americas theory other than the mtDNA haplogroup X being in both places? I am sorry that I did not get a chance to see the PBS or NOVA shows about this.
                          Don Potter Jr

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                          • #28
                            X is supposed not to have gone east but west don
                            last nights show indicated the cherry site in nc is overlapping with Solutrean and clovis. I can see them having settlements alone the ice even trade of some kind based on people going both ways.
                            Every time we make these people dumb they supprize us aka the ice man

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              THERE ARE NO ROCK OUTCROPS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE OCEAN.
                              Well, actually there are, they're called islands. Greenland and Iceland come to mind, also there may well be more than we know if the sea level has risen as much as they say. The Vikings made it to Iceland (Eric the Red) then on to Greenland (Lief Ericson) from Greenland it's a short hop to Canada.

                              I don't think anyone is saying THEY DEFINETLY MADE THE EAST TO WEST CROSSING OF THE ALANTIC! I think what is trying to be said is that we should remain open to the possibility that they did. I don't think that's so much to ask.

                              obtoo

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                OK. So there are a few islands. But in the Atlantic, they are far & few between. The odds of any of them being at the edge of the pack ice, where they would be found, would be rather low. I think it is doubtful that in random migrations on the ice, the technological know-how would have lasted for generations.

                                The one thing that could strengthen the theory would be the discovery that there were routine large mammal migrations from Europe to North America. If the hunters were following the herds & if the herds migrated back and forth between the two continents routinely, a condition would exist for rapid human migration to the New World from Europe (or visa versa). But this contains a lot of IFs.

                                Perhaps DNA might someday verify the existence of mammals (other than humans) in the eastern part of the US or Canada that show a recent divergence from European varieties that aren't found in Asia.

                                The bottom line is that the burden of proof lies on the shoulders of those presenting an alternate theory. We need to be careful & make certain that we don't go from saying that something "could have" happened to saying that something "did" happen.

                                Timothy Peterman

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