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  • clovid point people where did they come from this weeks NOVA

    where did they come from this weeks NOVA

  • #2
    I watched it, and it was enjoyable. Seems to shed new light on how western European genes got into some Native Americans. It looks like it will be years though before they can mount enough evidence to "prove" their theory.

    obtoo

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    • #3
      not really
      i watched a local program on N.H. pbs by some small time achealogists
      they found clovis points and then assumed it to be from the alaska people lol . see until you can debrainwash scientists they wont change their thought patterns. and they assume [a deadly word] the old therory

      its the same here in dna science a science maybe 20 yrs old at best and yet people act like we know it all. which we dont. we have not even started yet
      i always look at the map ftdna sends and i say why would someone migrate across siberia when they could follow the ice and fish and kill seals and the like.
      i would of gone west myself

      the inportant part was they had no axcess to russia to check until the late 90s. thats when they realized that clovis points never came that way because the museums didnt have any in their colections

      now some people will say you cant change your theroy on a few samples but they want to continue their old one on no samples. the point of dna is to show whats right not prove what we already believe

      Comment


      • #4
        If I recall right, some of you contributed to a lengthy post on this issue before the hacking incident last summer.

        The Solutrean culture popped up in Europe -seemingly out of the blue- and lasted for about a thousand years. When I was studying archaeology at Northwestern University about 25 years ago, there was a lot of discussion & mystery about the Solutreans. Who were they? Where did they come from? Where did they go? The artefacts they left suggest a culture that was a lot more advanced than either the Magdalenian culture that preceded them & the culture that succeeded them. The opinion at the time was that they were not locals, but came from who knows where. After leaving, the locals moved back into the sites & left more artefacts that looked like those from earlier. If I recall right, the date of the Solutrean was somewhere within a few thousand years of 20,000 years ago.

        Although the Nova program discussed the Solutreans as a possible source for Clovis, separated by only 5,000 years in time, in the end, the program suggested that Clovis was home grown in North America -this would be plausible if we accept that people were here in the pre-Clovis phase.

        I wouldn't be surprised if Clovis and Solutrean are linked, but in a reverse manner from what everyone else thinks. Imagine if early Americans developed Clovis, as they followed the Pacific coast to Tierra del Fuego & then came back up the Atlantic coast some time prior to 20,000 years ago. Imagine if these early Americans sailed across the Atlantic to Europe & left the Solutrean artefacts & then dispersed.

        The sites where Clovis-Solutrean may have developed may have been inundated by the rising sea levels. A lot remains to be discovered.

        As for the X mtDNA. If I recall right, for a long time, it was only found in low frequencies in Native Americans & Europeans. I read somewhere that a less derived form of X was finally located in Siberia near Lake Baikal (which would make sense). X is a "sister" to A, I, W, and R, all "daughters" of N. X was the "aunt" to H-V, J-T, & U-K and counted as one of the original "Seven Daughters of Eve". Considering that both Europe & the Americas received migration from out of Siberia/ Central Asia, this is a better explanation for the X distribution that a trans-Atlantic migration.

        The argument against a Europe to America (or visa versa) migration is actually a lack of y-DNA & mtDNA evidence. Did later genetic drift remove all of the DNA that was on the "wrong" continent?

        Timothy Peterman

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        • #5
          Hey wait a minute. The M45 mutation (P haplogroup), which I just found out runs in the male line of my maternal grandfather, marks a population that gave rise to both Q and R. The time depth is 30,000 years. More than sufficient to make this Central Asian/Siberian group a possible ancestor to both Europeans and many Amerinds. Seems logical that if you find related groups at remote sites from each other, either they migrated a long way, or they were once everywhere in between and have since disappeared from the intermediate areas. The latter is going to be a more likely explanation in most cases than fantastic perimeter trips around entire continents followed by transoceanic voyages into the unknown 20,000 years ago.

          Jeff Schweitzer

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dentate
            Hey wait a minute. The M45 mutation (P haplogroup), which I just found out runs in the male line of my maternal grandfather, marks a population that gave rise to both Q and R. The time depth is 30,000 years. More than sufficient to make this Central Asian/Siberian group a possible ancestor to both Europeans and many Amerinds. Seems logical that if you find related groups at remote sites from each other, either they migrated a long way, or they were once everywhere in between and have since disappeared from the intermediate areas. The latter is going to be a more likely explanation in most cases than fantastic perimeter trips around entire continents followed by transoceanic voyages into the unknown 20,000 years ago.

            Jeff Schweitzer
            it might also be something like why if pangia exsisted do certain places like australia have such diverse animals. but then again we havent tested alot either. i think there is tons of clovis points in new england and mid alantic but people just classify them wrong and i wouldnt be surprised if they went back and forth many times . and lived on the ice in the alantic . i mean why do eskimos live where they do now. why do siberians do the same.

            that iceflow in the alantic made the whole thing one continent with out a land conection. who are we to think no one lived on it . that mamoths didnt wander on to it. seals didnt slide onto the ice polar bears didnt migrate south on it to the edge of the alantic. the point beine that alaska is no longer the only answer. and the more open we are to other explaintions to these things
            the better we will be

            i wish the scientists were allowed to examine that caucasian skeliton they found in the mid west.i think that would of provided alot of answers

            Comment


            • #7
              3 points

              1.---The M45/P found in Central Asia, AFAIK, is not really "Central Asian" or "Turanian". Central Asia was a desert during the ice age. It's doubtful that people lived there (though they probably passed through it before that). The earliest skeletons found post ice age, AFAIK, are no more than 3,000 years old. The M45/P in Central Asia now was likely brought by the Altaic nomads (Mongols, Turks). M45/P is still found in high percentages among them and among Siberians, as well as in significant % in SE Asia and to a less extent, China, where the neolithic erased much of the diversity.

              Yes, this P was ancestral to many East and West Eurasians, but at around 30,000-40,000 years ago, the relationship translated to now is meaningless. No modern races existed then. All the fossils that have been found resemble more or less Australasian and African people of now.

              As for modern Native Americans, they are osteologically "Mongoloids". As the anthropologists says, once you strip to the bones, it's a north Asian face.

              2.---Prior to 8,500, it seems that the north of the Americas was inhabited by Ainu/Polynesian-like people (in skeletal morphology atleast), while the south was inhabited by people clustering with Jomon, Australasian, and Africans. Since Ainu and Polynesian are genetically and osteologically established as admixed populations between osteologically "Mongoloid" people and Australasians, the "Caucasians" in North America were probably a result of contact between an early coastal population that stretched from Asia to the Americas and a later Siberian/Inland population that expanded after the ice age.

              3.---As for the Solutrean connection, Clovis has a wide variety of tools and only one blade out of them was similar to Solutrean, not to mention they were separated by 8,000 (?) years. I can't picture a sea voyage in open ocean since no evidence of advanced maritime technology and knowledge have been found. You can't just decide to make a living off the sea one day and do a "road trip". As for animals going on artic ice or even glacier, it's impossible. Even counting out the cold, there is no food to forage on.

              Solutrean might've developed indigenously or maybe from a coastal culture in Asia. It is not found in Siberia or Alaska. That is correct.

              Comment


              • #8
                if your a hunter you foillow the game which would head west .
                they didnt have to do open sea even though they could of
                all they needed to do was hugh the coast and kill seals as they went

                Comment


                • #9
                  sailing

                  I dont have my exact ref. in front of me but I feel a need to point out something that my husband and I find plausible.

                  Around 70 some thousand years ago the body louse split and formed its own line (fact). To do this there had to be clothing on humans because thats the ONLY way it can survive (fact). Now nobody has said it could be fur skins but I would think the lice would have developed long before 70,000 y.ago if fur was all there was.

                  Now we know the first place humans went to was Australia, which involved an ocean crossing that many scientists cant hardly believe but there you are with proof. Also it seems to be the general consenses that they followed the coastline. Since the oceans have raised sites are under water from Asia to the Americas to Europe.

                  That being said and taking in to account info from the last 20 years that has blown old theories sky high. I take issue with programs and books showing early humans with crude, to say the least, rafts going for their ocean sailing.
                  WHY??? The facts show they had clothing and who knows maybe crude weaving style plus stiching ability. (There continues to be uncovered ,cloth samples from earlier and earlier times) These people, us, could have made good rafts or crude boats and why not sails (the clothing issue again). And humans are out to see whats around the bend (Australia).Why did some never stop till the Earth was covered with humans.

                  I think early man has been sold short, and why not cross from Europe to America. They were boxed in by glaciers. I think they could go anywhere they wanted and some DNA lines probably died out. And why not sail from points in Asia and Polynesia. If the water level ever dropped again I think some crow would find some dinner plates.

                  Proof is the ultimate find but theories abound but I think are ancestors accomplished much much more than theyare credited for. Thank you for taking time to read this.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by wolfandclaw



                    I think early man has been sold short, and why not cross from Europe to America. They were boxed in by glaciers. I think they could go anywhere they wanted and some DNA lines probably died out. And why not sail from points in Asia and Polynesia. If the water level ever dropped again I think some crow would find some dinner plates.

                    Proof is the ultimate find but theories abound but I think are ancestors accomplished much much more than theyare credited for. Thank you for taking time to read this.
                    i totaly agree


                    look if the ocean level went down enough for the bering straight to be land what would islands look like what would hawaii have been would more islands be around

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                    • #11
                      I've looked at the evidence for migration from Europe and there is nothing to go on. It's worth as a theory is on par with proposed links between Egypt and Mesoamerica. A lot of it is based on sentiments. Native Americans, once regarded as savages, are now admired, identified with, and seem really noble, wise, stoic... a romantic image of plains Indians with awesome bone structure, tanned, wild and free, living a life many in this enslaved, industrial modernity would like to live. So, people identify with them subconsciously.

                      This exert from Bones basically sums up the sentimentality behind the theory:
                      From Bones, page 4:
                      "I didn't think this diorama could be right, but its images stuck with me anyway. I stashed them in that niche in my mind where admiration and fascination had begun to grow: these people had lived a free life, a different life from mine. Some part of these images must surely have come from evidence provided science, or it would never have been shown to the public in a museum. The story also had a certain power. It intrigued me almost as much as the stories I was reading about ancient Greece and Rome. It echoed what I saw on television westerns, stories about dangerous and devilish or noble Native Americans. One could imagine that these were Tonto's larger-than-life ancestors, who had fought their way across Arctic wastes, mountain glaciers, and frigid Priairies, killing gigantic Ice Age animals like saber-toothed tigers as they went. This voyage made my grandparents' trek from Eastern Europe seem small by comparison. Their way had been smoothed, after all, by European technologies. My father's father was a blacksmith who helped build the Grand Trunk Railway and who, before he was done with life, built as a hobby Saskatoon's first electric car. I used to ride around in it in parades. The disciplined control of metallurgy, electricity, nuclear power, science defined us: tenacity, brute strength, stoicism defined them."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rudeboy
                        I've looked at the evidence for migration from Europe and there is nothing to go on. It's worth as a theory is on par with proposed links between Egypt and Mesoamerica. A lot of it is based on sentiments. Native Americans, once regarded as savages, are now admired, identified with, and seem really noble, wise, stoic... a romantic image of plains Indians with awesome bone structure, tanned, wild and free, living a life many in this enslaved, industrial modernity would like to live. So, people identify with them subconsciously.

                        ."
                        OKAY so you think the alantic crossing has nothing behind it but you embrass the alaska therory. you think its okay people in europe migrated across siberia then across the berring straight waited for the ice to break and never left any tools anywhere
                        and you dismiss the same people in europe decideing to follow game along the ice flow in the north atlantic to new england and virgina where they left some tools okay i dont understand it but okay

                        personally if thor hyadall can cross the pacific on rafts to populate the pacific islands we cant even imagine the atlantic at all. we confine their movements to nothing east. but what i would like to see is the map of the ocean if it dropped enough to make the bering sea land what happenes to the carabean bahamas canary islands exactly how big was the atlantic. and what was it like without the gulf stream?

                        if the big ice flow was about the bottom of iceland and greenland and the guulf stream didnt exist would the regular atlantic freeze like boston harbor .
                        i mean just what was it like. must of been so bad to make people want to migrate across siberia which must of been a dreamland back then a tropical splenor paradise. now we are asked to except the alaskans sailed boats down the coast to islands off california before they touched the inner continent. well if the pacific people did that why not the alantic better yet why not both and maybe more maybe some can across the southern route since the oldest people are south american.
                        but old beliefs die hard dont they

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                        • #13
                          BTW sentimentality isnt what we have . maybe your trying to keep an old therory in a nice box might fit the defination of sentimentality

                          personaly i believe these people were much like we are today smarter then your average bear

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Your emotional post is an excellent example of sentiments, as I'm only commenting on the facts of the matter. I don't know why you are so worked up.
                            Originally posted by Jim Denning
                            OKAY so you think the alantic crossing has nothing behind it but you embrass the alaska therory. you think its okay people in europe migrated across siberia then across the berring straight waited for the ice to break and never left any tools anywhere
                            ~Well, the later arrivals in the Americas are connected with Siberia-Beringia-Alaska. This is a fact.
                            ~Clovis is not connected with Siberia, true, unless Dyuktai culture can be shown to be it's predecessor. I never said proto-Clovis or any of the cultures found before the modern Natives came from Siberia.
                            ~Recent evidence seems to suggest that the earliest people came about from the Asian coast, as the geological, archeological, and osteological evidence makes this likely. A glacier seems to have actually separated them from the Beringians.
                            ~Also, the mtDNA tested on the Wizards Beach remains (Paleo-Americans in morphology), all show up with mtDNA from East Eurasia.

                            and you dismiss the same people in europe decideing to follow game along the ice flow in the north atlantic to new england and virgina where they left some tools okay i dont understand it but okay
                            Game don't go on ice flows. Nothing grows on them for games to eat and graze upon. This is ridiculous and only speaks of your sentiments.

                            personally if thor hyadall can cross the pacific on rafts to populate the pacific islands we cant even imagine the atlantic at all. we confine their movements to nothing east. but what i would like to see is the map of the ocean if it dropped enough to make the bering sea land what happenes to the carabean bahamas canary islands exactly how big was the atlantic. and what was it like without the gulf stream?
                            Comparing the Bering Sea to the Atlantic Ocean and positing a land bridge or shorter distance during the ice age between Europe and the Americas is pretty out there. What would possess these people to cross over the ocean, a spirit of adventure? when all prehistoric people did was to spend all day gathering food, and even that wasn't enough. And how would they survive on the ocean, by fishing?

                            if the big ice flow was about the bottom of iceland and greenland and the guulf stream didnt exist would the regular atlantic freeze like boston harbor .
                            i mean just what was it like. must of been so bad to make people want to migrate across siberia which must of been a dreamland back then a tropical splenor paradise. now we are asked to except the alaskans sailed boats down the coast to islands off california before they touched the inner continent. well if the pacific people did that why not the alantic better yet why not both and maybe more maybe some can across the southern route since the oldest people are south american.
                            but old beliefs die hard dont they
                            "Maybe"'s don't a logical, accepted theory make. The Beringia crossing is established because genetics, archaeology (post-Clovis), and osteology (the Native American is osteologically a "Mongoloid" in skull and in skeletal traits as well as dental morphology) ties the Americas to Beringia.
                            The way you put it, it seems you think Native Americans are paleo-Europeans. It's all sentiments, as I said.
                            Last edited by rudeboy; 28 May 2005, 11:11 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rudeboy

                              "Maybe"'s don't a logical, accepted theory make. The Beringia crossing is established because genetics, archaeology (post-Clovis), and osteology (the Native American is osteologically a "Mongoloid" in skull and in skeletal traits as well as dental morphology) ties the Americas to Beringia.
                              The way you put it, it seems you think Native Americans are paleo-Europeans. It's all sentiments, as I said.
                              LOOK AT THE MAP FTDNA SENDS TO H'S AND X'S thats what they say happened but it doesnt make sence unless you want it to fit a set therory

                              look at one time the ebb and flow was a set documtted therory of facts
                              we know what happened there. you see what you want to see. thats the history of science. people who find new things are attacked.until the evidence is so strong the old therory collapses. sit back and watch the inevitable.
                              the funniest thing is scientists as bright as they are, usually never see it

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