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  • Degree of Detail in Ethnic Background

    Ok, for a start, i'm considering this program, only if it can be able to isolate groups / countries of origin, going, far far back.

    I'm 100% European (clear fact, i've traced them all back) and for what I know, 0% Cohanim, so a lot of the advertised options are fairly useless to me.

    However, given my mix (Sicilian, Irish, German, English, French and Austrian), this whole thing could prove interesting if I can isolate subgroups among those branches or origins of people in those nations.

    For example, Sicily has been conquered by many, many different nations, making the blood of: Native Sicilians, Mainland Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Arabs, Danes, Southern Germans, Spaniards, Albanians, Armenians, Slavs and Berber all mixed in.

    The majority is Greek / Native Sicilian / Italian / Lebanese / Arabic, but the rest did influence.

    Anyway, similarly, the Irish have both Native Irish, Norse and Celtic backgrounds and people who are German have specific localized tribes which were the original backgrounds (Burgundians, Franks, Goths, Lombards, Saxons, Teutons, Vandals, etc).

    I know this might be a long shot, but can this process get that detailed so I can know which specific subgroups / tribes my ancestors came from?

    Also, on a side note (again, a long shot), some of my ancestors came from an area in relative proximity to "Otzi the Ice Man" who was discovered in 1991, frozen in a glacier for 5300 years. I know for a fact that genetic tests were made of the local population in a comparative manner such as this (and proved a connection to people from the area), so the data has to be out there to compare mine to his.

    But is it at all possible to do it?

    Thanks for all the help!

    JR

  • #2
    Excuse the question, but could you please say what program are you considering?
    Victor

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Victor
      Excuse the question, but could you please say what program are you considering?
      Victor
      I'm open to all of them (and even other genetic programs you may know of that familytreedna does not offer).

      Comment


      • #4
        jr76x,

        Ancestry By DNA does the EURO-DNA test which breaks down your European DNA into 4 basic groups. You can see more at www.ancestrybydna.com

        Comment


        • #5
          I am interested to know how you traced 'all' your ancestors. I would love to do the same thing myself - I am only back to the 1700's.

          Regards,

          Bob

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by jr76x
            Ok, for a start, i'm considering this program, only if it can be able to isolate groups / countries of origin, going, far far back.

            I'm 100% European (clear fact, i've traced them all back) and for what I know, 0% Cohanim, so a lot of the advertised options are fairly useless to me.

            However, given my mix (Sicilian, Irish, German, English, French and Austrian), this whole thing could prove interesting if I can isolate subgroups among those branches or origins of people in those nations.

            For example, Sicily has been conquered by many, many different nations, making the blood of: Native Sicilians, Mainland Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Arabs, Danes, Southern Germans, Spaniards, Albanians, Armenians, Slavs and Berber all mixed in.

            The majority is Greek / Native Sicilian / Italian / Lebanese / Arabic, but the rest did influence.

            Anyway, similarly, the Irish have both Native Irish, Norse and Celtic backgrounds and people who are German have specific localized tribes which were the original backgrounds (Burgundians, Franks, Goths, Lombards, Saxons, Teutons, Vandals, etc).

            I know this might be a long shot, but can this process get that detailed so I can know which specific subgroups / tribes my ancestors came from?

            Also, on a side note (again, a long shot), some of my ancestors came from an area in relative proximity to "Otzi the Ice Man" who was discovered in 1991, frozen in a glacier for 5300 years. I know for a fact that genetic tests were made of the local population in a comparative manner such as this (and proved a connection to people from the area), so the data has to be out there to compare mine to his.

            But is it at all possible to do it?

            Thanks for all the help!

            JR

            look mediteranian is completly different from german and that different then scandanavian and irish isnt close to that

            but that doesnt matter just because you came from someplace doesnt mean you turn up as the norm. most eropeans are shocked they have askenazi matchs they shouldnt be . but they are.

            where your peticular ydna has traveled is unknown until you test. even then you dont really know since people mix.i am from irish background eb3 with strong jewish ties and eb31 makes me the ice mans cousin neolithic farmers

            originally from somalia
            one fact it true until you test you dont know what you are

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree, you cannot possibly know all your ancestors, since there are tens of thousands. You cannot be sure until you test. As far as identifying groups within modern nations' borders, that is extremely difficult I would think. For me, I have tested both my Y and MtDNA lines, as well as my father's mtDNA line, and all 3 Haplogroups are minority lineages within the countries my ancestors come from. The Haplogroups are consistent with the overall geographic locations of the countries of origin, but not very consistent as far as the frequency within the borders of the particular countries. If I didn't know the countries of origins of my ancestors, these results would point me to entirely different countries. So you should consider this when receiving your Haplogroup, as there were many migrations of peoples moving to different areas of the world.

              Comment


              • #8
                The Y-chromosome test can pinpoint in general terms the location of your father's father's father's father (etc.) in the Stone Age. It is not specific enough to identify nationalities (which didn't exist in present form at that time). There are only 3-6 Y-markers for Europeans for example.

                However, if you know the location of your father's father's father's father traced back through paper, you can use those markers to predict a "probability" of which nationality his ancestors were.

                For example, if a person is R1b/Atlantic Modal Haplotype, and his paternal ancestry is from France, he can assume the "probability" that his earlier ancestors were Gaulish at one time.

                Specific German tribes can almost certainly *not* be distinguished by a Y-chromosome test.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jr76x
                  Ok, for a start, i'm considering this program, only if it can be able to isolate groups / countries of origin, going, far far back.
                  It is not clear what you mean by "far, far back". Y-dna testing can give you insight into whether you are related to a specific individual of the same surname during the period of modern history (say back to 1200 or so, depending on a number of variables.

                  Going back 20 generations you have up to 1,048,576 ancestors. Haplogroup testing can (maybe) tell you about the prehistoric background of ONE of them.


                  However, given my mix (Sicilian, Irish, German, English, French and Austrian), this whole thing could prove interesting if I can isolate subgroups among those branches or origins of people in those nations.
                  Again, y-DNA testing can only tell you about ONE of your ancestral lines. You could be 99.9% European, but one slave/emigrant from Africa or Asia could completely dominate your y-DNA test results or Haplogroup test results.


                  For example, Sicily has been conquered by many, many different nations, making the blood of: Native Sicilians, Mainland Italians, Greeks, Lebanese, Arabs, Danes, Southern Germans, Spaniards, Albanians, Armenians, Slavs and Berber all mixed in.
                  Exactly.


                  I know this might be a long shot, but can this process get that detailed so I can know which specific subgroups / tribes my ancestors came from?
                  Yes, but only one of them.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Norman Sicilian towns in Catania & Messina

                    I am from the R1b M343 group

                    My father comes from Sicily - a town called Randazzo. We had Germanic and Scandinavian ruling this Norman Sicilian town.

                    My mother also comes from Sicily - a town called Santo Stefano di Camastra. We had Spanish & Franks ruling there.

                    Where do you think I have orginated from?

                    Cheers,
                    John

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Sicily project at FTDNA

                      Originally posted by johnraciti
                      I am from the R1b M343 group

                      My father comes from Sicily - a town called Randazzo. We had Germanic and Scandinavian ruling this Norman Sicilian town.

                      My mother also comes from Sicily - a town called Santo Stefano di Camastra. We had Spanish & Franks ruling there.

                      Where do you think I have orginated from?

                      Cheers,
                      John
                      John,

                      I want to encourage you to join the Sicily project here at FTDNA. It was formed in early September by Jean Giunta Denning and I joined the project a month ago and became her co-administrator. So far we have 8 members, with results back for Jean and 5 of the men. We have 3 R1b's (me included), 1 E3b and 1 with undetermined haplogroup.

                      It is quite possible that you and I and the other R1b's have Norman blood in our paternal lines. Although R1b is the predominant haplogroup throughout Europe, given the Greek and Arab long involvement in Sicily, going back over 2,500 years, I am surprised by the high percentage of R1b so far, even with such a small sample.

                      If you already have your test results here at FTDNA, just go to your personal webpage and find the place where you can join a specific project and choose the Sicily project. If you have not been tested yet, order a kit and join the Sicily project at the same time on this page - http://www.ftdna.com/surname_join.as...&projecttype=G Since both your parents are from Sicily, you can submit both yDNA and mtDNA results, so keep that in mind if you have to order a test kit.

                      Mike Maddi

                      P.S. By the way, I probably have ancestors from the 1700s from Santo Stefano di Camastra. My gggg-grandmother Maria Torcivia was born in 1785 in Termini Imerese, but it is a very uncommon surname there. The surname is very common in Santo Stefano di Camastra, just east of Termini on the northern coast.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        i wish the Sicily project had a results page

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Arabs in Sicily

                          My Y DNA is not Sicilian so maybe I do not qualify to talk on this project, BUT, I like dispelling myths, so, here goes:

                          The "Arabs in Sicily" is a popular culture myth, propagated originally by Northern Italians and others who sought to explain Sicilians' criminal tendencies, passed along in pop-culture (Quentin Tarantino films) and often unwittingly by bright people like all of you who do not wish to deny their multicultural heritage lest you seem racist.

                          But, alas, it's a myth.

                          Researchers in Europe have conducted ample studies that show that approximately 5% of Sicilian Y chromosomes (coming from two subclades of J and E, I believe) MAY be candidates for recent North African origin.

                          Whether these numbers reflect the Arab occupation in c. 1000 AD or just genetic drift or something like the Roman slave trade, they are de minimis.

                          Many scientists have noted that the Sicilian numbers on the other side (mtDNA) match the percentages found in England.

                          And this last part I don't mean to sound snotty, so forgive me in advance if it comes across this way: but even history would back up the scenario I just described.

                          You see, the Arabs ruled Sicily as hated overseers. As you all know, all religions were fanatical during those times. So between linguistic, cultural and religious barriers, there was little intermarriage.

                          But, people say, didn't some Arabs remain in Sicily after the elite class left? Surely there was some intermarriage?

                          Still, no, or little, or de minimis. The last thing the crusading Sicilian fathers would say after years of battling the Muslim invaders is: please marry my daughter.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            One thing that all of these DNA studies have shown is that the majority of people living in a particular place today are descended from a core population that has been there for millenia. The major exception to this is, of course, the New World. If the vast majority of Native Americans hadn't succumbed to diseases brought from the Old World, this would probably be true in the New World as well.

                            Before DNA studies became commonplace, it was easy to visualize the ancient Celts of England, for example, being totally replaced by Anglo-Saxons. Even the migration of neolithic farmers from Anatolia didn't change the DNA composition of Europe very much.

                            I wouldn't be surprised if most Sicilians were to trace their roots back 10,000 years on all sides, they would find that the majority of them lived in... Sicily. As control of the island shifted around (Carthage, Rome, the Normans, the Arabs, etc.), the island was no doubt occupied in person for a little while by the controlling groups. Some may have left a bit of DNA, but not much.

                            Timothy Peterman

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Nordic-Celts in Sicily

                              Could it be possible that the Nordic-Celts from Cagge,
                              Finnmark, Northern Norway migrated to Sicily?

                              Did these Celts come from Ireland and go to Norway?

                              I am a Caggegi by blood from Randazzo. I carry the
                              'R1b' dna gene as they do in Finnmark, Northern
                              Norway. It is a Nordic-Celtic dna gene - which was
                              introduced in Sicily back in the 1060's.

                              Please let me know what you thing?

                              Thanks,
                              Giovanni Caggegi-Raciti

                              Haplotype details:

                              DYS19: 14
                              DYS385a: 11
                              DYS385b: 14
                              DYS388: 12
                              DYS389I: 13
                              DYS389II: 29
                              DYS390: 24
                              DYS391: 11
                              DYS392: 13
                              DYS393: 13
                              DYS426 : 12
                              DYS439: 12

                              Percentage of Population that are Haplogroup R1b:
                              Italian – 62.0%
                              Calabrian – 32.4%
                              Sardinian – 22.1%

                              Does any one know what is the percentage of population that are Haplogroup R1b for Sicily is?

                              Cheers,
                              John

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