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  • Geneadict
    replied
    Originally posted by efgen View Post
    Geneadict,

    Your perspective of FTDNA's prices and sale pricing vs 23andMe is seriously skewed.

    Are you not aware that 23andMe has major venture capital backing them, so they can "afford" (I use that term very loosely!) to lose money in the short-term, while hoping that their business will succeed in the long-term?

    FTDNA, on the other hand, has no venture capital. So FTDNA offers tests at a reasonable price most of the year, and they offer several discounts through the year, with *steep* money-losing discounts only rarely.

    Also, maybe you don't realize that FTDNA has to purchase the microarray chips used for Family Finder from Illumina at a fixed price? Why don't you go contact Illumina and demand that they sell their chips to FTDNA at a cheaper price so that FTDNA can offer a lower price? Let us know how that turns out.

    Hmm, or maybe you would prefer to see FTDNA jack up its everyday prices so that they can afford to offer steeper discounts once or twice a year? But then what happens to FTDNA when people stop paying the everyday prices and only purchase tests at these steep discounts? As it is, the minute anyone mentions on a forum that they're going to order a test, some people scream "wait for a sale!" How can any business survive when their products are only purchased at sale pricing? Sales are a privilege, NOT a right!

    Customers constantly demand IT improvements.
    Customers demand quick responses from Customer Service.
    Customers demand new and improved products.

    Where do you think FTDNA gets the money from to pay the staff for all of these things? You think offering tests at steep discounts is going to provide enough capital for FTDNA to maintain the level of service that customers expect and demand?

    Do you think economy affects only the consumer? Businesses should take a loss so that consumers can afford their products?

    Time to face reality and get over yourself. You don't want to test with FTDNA, then fine, don't -- nobody is forcing you to do so. But at the same time, many customers are very happy with FTDNA, are thankful for any sales that they offer, and they don't need or want to keep hearing your negativity. So I think we've had quite enough of the FTDNA-bashing here, thankyouverymuch.

    Elise

    Skewed, really? I'm one of the few people in this forum who looks at any of this with any strand of objectivity and for the best interest of hobbyist who purchase these services, without the "FTDNA or nothing" blinders on that some people seem to wear.

    I'm well aware of the need for a business and get a return on their investment, but there also a need to balance this with the needs of it's customers. Obviously nobody benefits if they are no longer a going concern.

    Meanwhile, you mention all the demands of customers, but fail to note that most of those are never delivered such as an X chromosome browser, upgrading ysearch for Y111 results, and huge delay in bringing the 23andMe upload option to market.

    Given the fact that FTDNA holds a virtual monopoly in Y STR and mtDNA testing (having bought out or put most of their competition out of business) and offer certain products that no other company offer such as their Y67, Y111, and full sequence mtDNA, I can understand their resistance to sacrifice any profit margin for higher volumes.

    However, with autosomal DNA (FF) there is plenty of competition and FTDNA appears to be out in left field on their pricing of this product and while their suggested price range for the 23andMe upload, about $50 and supposedly is going to be rolled out abt 5-6 weeks (from last weekend), is obviously a good thing for hobbyist, when combined with their non-movement on pricing of FF, it's actually a slap in the face to any existing customer who would have to pay more to get a sample that they have in storage tested with FTDNA than someone who chooses to purchase a test from their competitor and upload the data. Had they gone to a lower price point for FF, rolled out the 23andMe upload sooner, and avoided their Affy debacle, they could be in a position to offer the best autosomal SNP testing in the market place which would benefit both FTDNA and consumers, but they are far from it and as stated before, it may be too little too late.

    Leave a comment:


  • Taz85
    replied
    Originally posted by Geneadict
    While there may be some who don't mind FTDNA's monopolistic control of YDNA and mtDNA testing that has resulted in fixed pricing and even fixed sale pricing (albeit the frequency of sales has increased in the last 12 months compared to prior years) in spite of downward pricing pressure on many other industries during our economic downturn, I'm would think growing the databases and showing customer appreciation would be more important to many customers.

    It's unfortunate that FTDNA has decided to treat their autosomal DNA test pricing the same way as their Y and mtDNA in spite of pricing pressure from competition, additional competition on the horizon, and their own announced 23andMe upload option that is supposed to be around $50 which essentially puts them in competition with themselves based on their current base and sale pricing. Their pricing of autosomal test also appears to show they fail to recognize the value of testing multiple close family members that are not as relevant to YDNA or mtDNA testing. The autosomal DNA testing is a different animal and FTDNA has continued to loose market share since entering the market. While the 23andMe upload option is a plus, it may be too little, too late.

    While pros/cons of 23andME vs FF are many and addressed in many places, I would find it hard for anyone to argue that getting both is not advantageous to just one or the other. With the $50 upload option, a person can now buy a 23andMe test and do the upload for LESS than buying FF test from FTDNA as follows:

    Base Pricing:
    FF $289
    23andMe: Base $99, 1 yr sub ($108), FF upload $50 = $257

    Sale Pricing:
    FF $199
    23andMe: (based on last 2 sales and assuming no change in sub rate, but future sale pricing unknown: $0 or $50, 1 yr sub ($108), FF upload $50 = $158 to $208

    And that's before any muti-purchase discounting which 23andMe offers via it's family plan subscription pricing.

    About the only advantage for purchasing a FF test is related to ability to purchase YSTR or mtDNA tests using the same sample. So if someone is in a position where getting an additional sample to test with 23andMe is not feasible, or in some cases not even possible, and they already have a sample in storage with FTDNA this may be a compelling reason to make the purchase.

    Of course, FTDNA's unwillingness to reduce FF price or any of their pricing any further, or offer any sort of multi-purchase discounting, along with many of the new or additional sale efforts being tied to Facebook and not freely offered to all existing customers, is a good indication that FTDNA considers it's existing customers as "cash cows" and they will continue to "milk us" as long as they generate adequate sales, which of course is a detriment to consumers who would benefit from greater growth in the databases, especially FF which is still too small for them to even officially report on their website where they brag about the size of their database.

    All ive seen you do is whine on various threads. If you don't like ftdna...find another company. Ftdna has been great for me. If you got a prob with ftdna....email them. Some people do not want to hear annoying rambling of how bad ftdna is.

    Leave a comment:


  • mkdexter
    replied
    Originally posted by Geneadict View Post
    First, this and other forums is a place to ask/answer questions, tell stories, and express opinions, so that's what I'm doing.
    No actually Paul that is not what you are doing.

    You've written seven posts here just in this thread expressing your dissatisfaction and another eight on the FTDNA FB page since CeCe's post. To everyone else but yourself it is a turnoff.

    It is all very overboard and not really the purpose of a forum like this; and in doing so you've been pushing 23andMe's test on another company's site which I'd say is at a point of beyond the terms of service here.

    If you are sincerely and honestly concerned and want to really help (and honestly your behavior speaks otherwise), write Max.
    Last edited by mkdexter; 16 November 2011, 02:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peacock100
    replied
    Originally posted by Geneadict View Post
    Not any more tiresome than FTDNA's pricing, or addressing people who like to say 23andMe is just for health and not ancestry/genealogy, when that's simply not true. Or for people who complain about what other's post or how they say what they say in their post rather than something substantive. And the bottom line is that an individual doesn't have to use just one company or one tool when there are several available and large differences in advantages for one company related to some of those tools, but large disadvantage when it comes to other tools.

    First, this and other forums is a place to ask/answer questions, tell stories, and express opinions, so that's what I'm doing.

    Second, let's all be realistic, no company is going to change pricing practices just because one customer complains. Now if many others share the same opinion and express it, that will help too, but the only way any pricing or sales plans will change are if the customer purchases generated are deemed inadequate by the company's management. So the only power I really have is to not make a purchase (or make a purchase from their competitor) which probably isn't going to mean much to anyone at FTDNA by itself, whereas the power of many could speak volumes.

    Third, I assume most customers or potential customers are unaware of the same pricing being used for over 3 years, or the same sale pricing being used as well. I also assume many are not aware of the pricing comparison between the 23andMe plus upload to FF option that will be available soon as compared to FF (and you appear to be unaware of 23andMe sale pricing likely as well). So in both cases, I view this as a public service announcement for consumers in this hobby.

    If there are others that disagree and want to emphasize many of the positives of testing with FTDNA, that's fine too. I've purchased many products from them in the past and will likely purchase more in the future, but this sale is a major disappointment for anyone wanting to purchase the Y111 upgrade or purchase FF for someone wanting to test a deceased family member for whom other testing was previously purchased from FTDNA (as it will cost more than it would to do both 23andMe and FF upload for a living individual) and I have to believe, I'm not the only one with this perspective.
    Geneadict

    First of all, try contacting Bennett Greenspan as to your pricing ideas. Provide him with your constructive ideas as to how FTDNA might provide better prices, PR and so on. As, said, my experience is that he listens and responds. Since you say "no company is going to change pricing policies because one customer complains", I am presuming you have never tried to contact Bennett Greenspan and tried to discuss your ideas with him. You may suggest your idea and find that he says no or you may find that he is open to it, but you will not know unless you contact him. Until you do that, I do not find it fair that you imply that FTDNA is a mega corporation like all of the others that will not listen to what an individual has to say.

    As to the health emphasis at 23 and Me and the money behind 23 and Me, 23 and Me is backed by Google co-founder Sergey Brin and for that amazing story see: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/0...s_search/all/1.
    All hats off to Anne Wojiciki who founded 23 and Me and to Sergey, co-founder of Google.com and their united efforts, to endeavor in using DNA technology to try to find the genetic basis of diseases, prevention and cures of diseases, the basis of Sergeys involvement in this endeavor, being his disposition to Parkinson (cannot use apstrophes here) disease - read the story. As a physician, I see a great potential in the work at 23 and Me. I also see that 23 and Me is moving forward towards total genome testing and I think that will be the future of 23 and Me, continued emphasis on health based issues. Genealogy will be a side-line, as it has been, and will not be important, as to the continued existence of 23 and Me. That is how I see it and I may be wrong but that is also how I have experienced it also, over there at 23 and Me.

    Linda

    Leave a comment:


  • shandy4473
    replied
    Thank You

    Originally posted by efgen View Post
    Geneadict,

    Your perspective of FTDNA's prices and sale pricing vs 23andMe is seriously skewed.

    Are you not aware that 23andMe has major venture capital backing them, so they can "afford" (I use that term very loosely!) to lose money in the short-term, while hoping that their business will succeed in the long-term?

    FTDNA, on the other hand, has no venture capital. So FTDNA offers tests at a reasonable price most of the year, and they offer several discounts through the year, with *steep* money-losing discounts only rarely.

    Also, maybe you don't realize that FTDNA has to purchase the microarray chips used for Family Finder from Illumina at a fixed price? Why don't you go contact Illumina and demand that they sell their chips to FTDNA at a cheaper price so that FTDNA can offer a lower price? Let us know how that turns out.

    Hmm, or maybe you would prefer to see FTDNA jack up its everyday prices so that they can afford to offer steeper discounts once or twice a year? But then what happens to FTDNA when people stop paying the everyday prices and only purchase tests at these steep discounts? As it is, the minute anyone mentions on a forum that they're going to order a test, some people scream "wait for a sale!" How can any business survive when their products are only purchased at sale pricing? Sales are a privilege, NOT a right!

    Customers constantly demand IT improvements.
    Customers demand quick responses from Customer Service.
    Customers demand new and improved products.

    Where do you think FTDNA gets the money from to pay the staff for all of these things? You think offering tests at steep discounts is going to provide enough capital for FTDNA to maintain the level of service that customers expect and demand?

    Do you think economy affects only the consumer? Businesses should take a loss so that consumers can afford their products?

    Time to face reality and get over yourself. You don't want to test with FTDNA, then fine, don't -- nobody is forcing you to do so. But at the same time, many customers are very happy with FTDNA, are thankful for any sales that they offer, and they don't need or want to keep hearing your negativity. So I think we've had quite enough of the FTDNA-bashing here, thankyouverymuch.

    Elise
    Thank You Elise and Linda!!! And by the way - 23andME is for medical and health. Their entire business model is patterned on that. In fact, the RIFT program for African-American families is evident of that. I can't tell you the number of health surveys I had to fill out for the free genetic testing program. (RIFT program)

    FTDNA business model is patterned exclusively for genealogical purposes!!!

    Apples vs Oranges!!!!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • efgen
    replied
    Geneadict,

    Your perspective of FTDNA's prices and sale pricing vs 23andMe is seriously skewed.

    Are you not aware that 23andMe has major venture capital backing them, so they can "afford" (I use that term very loosely!) to lose money in the short-term, while hoping that their business will succeed in the long-term?

    FTDNA, on the other hand, has no venture capital. So FTDNA offers tests at a reasonable price most of the year, and they offer several discounts through the year, with *steep* money-losing discounts only rarely.

    Also, maybe you don't realize that FTDNA has to purchase the microarray chips used for Family Finder from Illumina at a fixed price? Why don't you go contact Illumina and demand that they sell their chips to FTDNA at a cheaper price so that FTDNA can offer a lower price? Let us know how that turns out.

    Hmm, or maybe you would prefer to see FTDNA jack up its everyday prices so that they can afford to offer steeper discounts once or twice a year? But then what happens to FTDNA when people stop paying the everyday prices and only purchase tests at these steep discounts? As it is, the minute anyone mentions on a forum that they're going to order a test, some people scream "wait for a sale!" How can any business survive when their products are only purchased at sale pricing? Sales are a privilege, NOT a right!

    Customers constantly demand IT improvements.
    Customers demand quick responses from Customer Service.
    Customers demand new and improved products.

    Where do you think FTDNA gets the money from to pay the staff for all of these things? You think offering tests at steep discounts is going to provide enough capital for FTDNA to maintain the level of service that customers expect and demand?

    Do you think economy affects only the consumer? Businesses should take a loss so that consumers can afford their products?

    Time to face reality and get over yourself. You don't want to test with FTDNA, then fine, don't -- nobody is forcing you to do so. But at the same time, many customers are very happy with FTDNA, are thankful for any sales that they offer, and they don't need or want to keep hearing your negativity. So I think we've had quite enough of the FTDNA-bashing here, thankyouverymuch.

    Elise

    Leave a comment:


  • Geneadict
    replied
    Originally posted by Peacock100 View Post
    Geez Geneadict. This is getting to be a little tiresome. Why do you not take your complaints/suggestions to the FTDNA staff or to Bennett Greenspan himself? Bennett is a nice man and if you present your case to him he will listen and answer you. He may or may not give you the answer you are seeking, but he will reply.

    As to pricing and so on, well the current FTDNA sale price - 199 dolllars is pretty good for those who have already done Y and or Mt DNA tests at FTDNA. The price of doing that (just wanting an autosomal test) at 23 and Me would be 99 dollars + 108 dollars (minimum subscription time of one year at 9 dollars a month) = 207 dollars. And then factor in transferring to FTDNA for 50 dollars = 257 dollars. The Mt DNA test at 23 and Me is hard to compare to e.g. tests at FTDNA and I do not know enough about the value of the Y-results at 23 and Me to have an opinion.

    Of the 2 companies, if I were into doing the DNA testing solely for genealogy, and had to make a choice between the 2 I would chose FTDNA. I am into the DNA solely for genealogy and one of the old sales at 23 and Me is why I tested there at all. It was a non-subsription test. I would never take a test where I had to pay an annual subscription in order to maintain my results on the site. Furthermore, what is the deal over there at 23 and Me about matches disappering when they round 1000 matches?

    Linda

    Not any more tiresome than FTDNA's pricing, or addressing people who like to say 23andMe is just for health and not ancestry/genealogy, when that's simply not true. Or for people who complain about what other's post or how they say what they say in their post rather than something substantive. And the bottom line is that an individual doesn't have to use just one company or one tool when there are several available and large differences in advantages for one company related to some of those tools, but large disadvantage when it comes to other tools.

    First, this and other forums is a place to ask/answer questions, tell stories, and express opinions, so that's what I'm doing.

    Second, let's all be realistic, no company is going to change pricing practices just because one customer complains. Now if many others share the same opinion and express it, that will help too, but the only way any pricing or sales plans will change are if the customer purchases generated are deemed inadequate by the company's management. So the only power I really have is to not make a purchase (or make a purchase from their competitor) which probably isn't going to mean much to anyone at FTDNA by itself, whereas the power of many could speak volumes.

    Third, I assume most customers or potential customers are unaware of the same pricing being used for over 3 years, or the same sale pricing being used as well. I also assume many are not aware of the pricing comparison between the 23andMe plus upload to FF option that will be available soon as compared to FF (and you appear to be unaware of 23andMe sale pricing likely as well). So in both cases, I view this as a public service announcement for consumers in this hobby.

    If there are others that disagree and want to emphasize many of the positives of testing with FTDNA, that's fine too. I've purchased many products from them in the past and will likely purchase more in the future, but this sale is a major disappointment for anyone wanting to purchase the Y111 upgrade or purchase FF for someone wanting to test a deceased family member for whom other testing was previously purchased from FTDNA (as it will cost more than it would to do both 23andMe and FF upload for a living individual) and I have to believe, I'm not the only one with this perspective.
    Last edited by Geneadict; 16 November 2011, 12:40 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peacock100
    replied
    Originally posted by Geneadict
    While there may be some who don't mind FTDNA's monopolistic control of YDNA and mtDNA testing that has resulted in fixed pricing and even fixed sale pricing (albeit the frequency of sales has increased in the last 12 months compared to prior years) in spite of downward pricing pressure on many other industries during our economic downturn, I'm would think growing the databases and showing customer appreciation would be more important to many customers.

    It's unfortunate that FTDNA has decided to treat their autosomal DNA test pricing the same way as their Y and mtDNA in spite of pricing pressure from competition, additional competition on the horizon, and their own announced 23andMe upload option that is supposed to be around $50 which essentially puts them in competition with themselves based on their current base and sale pricing. Their pricing of autosomal test also appears to show they fail to recognize the value of testing multiple close family members that are not as relevant to YDNA or mtDNA testing. The autosomal DNA testing is a different animal and FTDNA has continued to loose market share since entering the market. While the 23andMe upload option is a plus, it may be too little, too late.

    While pros/cons of 23andME vs FF are many and addressed in many places, I would find it hard for anyone to argue that getting both is not advantageous to just one or the other. With the $50 upload option, a person can now buy a 23andMe test and do the upload for LESS than buying FF test from FTDNA as follows:

    Base Pricing:
    FF $289
    23andMe: Base $99, 1 yr sub ($108), FF upload $50 = $257

    Sale Pricing:
    FF $199
    23andMe: (based on last 2 sales and assuming no change in sub rate, but future sale pricing unknown: $0 or $50, 1 yr sub ($108), FF upload $50 = $158 to $208

    And that's before any muti-purchase discounting which 23andMe offers via it's family plan subscription pricing.

    About the only advantage for purchasing a FF test is related to ability to purchase YSTR or mtDNA tests using the same sample. So if someone is in a position where getting an additional sample to test with 23andMe is not feasible, or in some cases not even possible, and they already have a sample in storage with FTDNA this may be a compelling reason to make the purchase.

    Of course, FTDNA's unwillingness to reduce FF price or any of their pricing any further, or offer any sort of multi-purchase discounting, along with many of the new or additional sale efforts being tied to Facebook and not freely offered to all existing customers, is a good indication that FTDNA considers it's existing customers as "cash cows" and they will continue to "milk us" as long as they generate adequate sales, which of course is a detriment to consumers who would benefit from greater growth in the databases, especially FF which is still too small for them to even officially report on their website where they brag about the size of their database.
    Geez Geneadict. This is getting to be a little tiresome. Why do you not take your complaints/suggestions to the FTDNA staff or to Bennett Greenspan himself? Bennett is a nice man and if you present your case to him he will listen and answer you. He may or may not give you the answer you are seeking, but he will reply.

    As to pricing and so on, well the current FTDNA sale price - 199 dolllars is pretty good for those who have already done Y and or Mt DNA tests at FTDNA. The price of doing that (just wanting an autosomal test) at 23 and Me would be 99 dollars + 108 dollars (minimum subscription time of one year at 9 dollars a month) = 207 dollars. And then factor in transferring to FTDNA for 50 dollars = 257 dollars. The Mt DNA test at 23 and Me is hard to compare to e.g. tests at FTDNA and I do not know enough about the value of the Y-results at 23 and Me to have an opinion.

    Of the 2 companies, if I were into doing the DNA testing solely for genealogy, and had to make a choice between the 2 I would chose FTDNA. I am into the DNA solely for genealogy and one of the old sales at 23 and Me is why I tested there at all. It was a non-subsription test. I would never take a test where I had to pay an annual subscription in order to maintain my results on the site. Furthermore, what is the deal over there at 23 and Me about matches disappering when they round 1000 matches?

    Linda

    Leave a comment:


  • mkdexter
    replied
    Originally posted by Ann Turner View Post
    I do see the sale prices, but no indication that it is a sale with an ending date. If I click on Family Finder on the home page, it says "Was $289: Order now for $199". What are we to make of that?
    Ann:

    Ooops.. my bad.. the FB page has an event link with the ending dates but you are correct - not the website.

    also I sent you an email the other day did you receive it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Inge Maria
    replied
    I would like to thank both my Hap K and Czech DNA administrators for sending e-mail concerning the FTDNA sale.Both, base price and sale price were indicated.
    I am glad that I joyned both projects.
    K1a1a
    Czech DNA

    Leave a comment:


  • Peacock100
    replied
    Nope, no sale announcement, just the sladhed prices on the products page.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ann Turner
    replied
    Originally posted by mkdexter View Post
    The information is plainly posted on their FB page and on the FTDNA website so one doesn't need to be a group admin to know about this sale.
    I do see the sale prices, but no indication that it is a sale with an ending date. If I click on Family Finder on the home page, it says "Was $289: Order now for $199". What are we to make of that?

    Leave a comment:


  • similligan
    replied
    I agree, Jim. Sales are nice, but to me the important thing is that they are profitable enough to stay in business and to continue developing and offering new products, like this year's new 111 marker test.

    Susan

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Barrett
    replied
    Thanks For Having a Sale

    THANKS to FTDNA for having a sale. Some people fail to understand that they didn't have to have a sale at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Geneadict
    replied
    Multipurchase discounting would also show more appreciation for FTDNAs existing customer base, who in my opinion are being treated as a "cash cows" given both base and sales pricing over the past 3+ years.

    Leave a comment:

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