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The Finns, the Saami and the Yakuts

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  • sithia
    replied
    Originally posted by loisrp View Post
    How can one tell if one is of Saami ancestry, given known Norwegian genealogy?
    Certain markers exist however its simple to look at your blood type. Saami have the arctic blood type A2+. Among genetic Norwegians you'll see more O+ and some A1+ blood.

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  • loisrp
    replied
    How can one tell if one is of Saami ancestry, given known Norwegian genealogy?

    Leave a comment:


  • sithia
    replied
    More Saami then you know

    Originally posted by eriks39 View Post
    I know I am abt 6% east Finnish, but mostly Norwegian. My Population Finder (PF) has surprising results. I am 97.8% western European ("Orcadian"), and 2.2% east Asian, most likely Yakutian (first mentioned people among them). Jeroen R Huyghe et al. in their article A genome-wide analysis of population structure in the Finnish Saami with implications for genetic association studies in European Journal of Human Genetics (19, 2010, p. 347-352) found that the Saami are around 6% of east Asian ancestry, having an IBS (identity-by-state) sharing with the Yakuts of 0.7328. This could mean I have Saami ancestors, but that doesn't show in PF. My ancestors who could be of Saami descent lived in the territory of the so called Pite Saami, just south of Bodo, Nordland, Norway. I wonder why my Population Finder does not show my east Finnish or Saami ancestry. I have been told that there is no east Finnish reference group yet, but still. By the way I know that the population of Northern Savo in east Finland has a modest Saami component, perhaps about 6%. But could the Yakut ancestry have come through the east Finns and not the Saami? The graves on the island Olene Ostrov in Lake Onega, Karelia, Russia, contains some people with "Mongoloid" skulls. R. A. Denisova wrote that these skulls don't differ much from the Yakuts, except for the noses. (Erik Nilsson-Mankok (ed.): Etnogenesen av de finsk-ugriska folken, Umea, Sweden 1984, p. 22.) The answer could of course be a combination of all of these factors. Are there any others out there with Finnish or Saami ancestry whose Population Finder shows Yakut ancestry?
    The black plague took out some 60 to 85 % of Norwegians. The Saami, which covers all of north and middle Norway, were not on the trade routs during that time and survived that illness. The Norwegians asked them to populate the abandoned farms down south and gave them full rights and as Norwegians. There is no records of them as Saami anywhere but I worked for the Norwegian American Chamber of commerce for years and happen to know that I was Saami before I was tested. Most of the genetic Norwegians are around Oslo. Southern Sea Saami are hard to distinguish from Norwegian both in appearance and in language so the ones that kept the original Saami family names sound close enough to Norwegian that you wouldn't know the dif. My Norwegian friends don't see me as Norwegian at all, even though my family comes from southern Norway.
    LOL, I just looked up Bodo on a map. Yes! your ancestors are totally Saami. At least no Norwegian would ever really see you as a Norwegian descendant rather one of Sapmi.

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  • sithia
    replied
    More Saami then you know

    Originally posted by eriks39 View Post
    I know I am abt 6% east Finnish, but mostly Norwegian. My Population Finder (PF) has surprising results. I am 97.8% western European ("Orcadian"), and 2.2% east Asian, most likely Yakutian (first mentioned people among them). Jeroen R Huyghe et al. in their article A genome-wide analysis of population structure in the Finnish Saami with implications for genetic association studies in European Journal of Human Genetics (19, 2010, p. 347-352) found that the Saami are around 6% of east Asian ancestry, having an IBS (identity-by-state) sharing with the Yakuts of 0.7328. This could mean I have Saami ancestors, but that doesn't show in PF. My ancestors who could be of Saami descent lived in the territory of the so called Pite Saami, just south of Bodo, Nordland, Norway. I wonder why my Population Finder does not show my east Finnish or Saami ancestry. I have been told that there is no east Finnish reference group yet, but still. By the way I know that the population of Northern Savo in east Finland has a modest Saami component, perhaps about 6%. But could the Yakut ancestry have come through the east Finns and not the Saami? The graves on the island Olene Ostrov in Lake Onega, Karelia, Russia, contains some people with "Mongoloid" skulls. R. A. Denisova wrote that these skulls don't differ much from the Yakuts, except for the noses. (Erik Nilsson-Mankok (ed.): Etnogenesen av de finsk-ugriska folken, Umea, Sweden 1984, p. 22.) The answer could of course be a combination of all of these factors. Are there any others out there with Finnish or Saami ancestry whose Population Finder shows Yakut ancestry?
    The black plague took out some 60 to 85 % of Norwegians. The Saami, which covers all of north and middle Norway, were not on the trade routs during that time and survived that illness. The Norwegians asked them to populate the abandoned farms down south and gave them full rights and as Norwegians. There is no records of them as Saami anywhere but I worked for the Norwegian American Chamber of commerce for years and happen to know that I was Saami before I was tested. Most of the genetic Norwegians are around Oslo. Southern Sea Saami are hard to distinguish from Norwegian both in appearance and in language so the ones that kept the original Saami family names sound close enough to Norwegian that you wouldn't know the dif. My Norwegian friends don't see me as Norwegian at all, even though my family comes from southern Norway.

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  • perttuns
    replied
    Originally posted by Linda Vixie View Post
    Hi Erik--

    I'm a new user of FTDNA and just got back my Population Finder results, which are very similar to yours:

    Western European (Orcadian) 96.83%
    East Asia (Yakut, Japanese, Mongolian) 3.17%
    Margin of error: 0.37% on both
    ....

    Have you found others with the Orcadian/Yakut profile?

    Linda
    I do not know of any with this profile.

    However, some Northeastern Europeans have Yakut on their PF, at least some Finns have. Not many though. Most of them don't know of any Saame ancestors on historic times or before. What is defined as Yakut might be an old mix. Instead some that know that they have some Saame ancestors, don't have any Yakut percentages.

    It would be interesting to know what the Gedmatch "says" about those that have Yakut in PF; if they have high or low Siberian and or Saame or other populations like that. Anyways, PF will have an update and maybe some will loose the Yakut percentages and it might be replaced by something more local and accurate. We'll see.

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  • Tourist
    replied
    My Finnish mother-in-law once said that nobody knows just where the Finns originally came from, but Finland has made much research about that question, and apparently the Finns could have originated in the region of what is now called the Volga river, but long before any Russian ever set foot there, like several thousand years before any Russian ever set foot there.

    That region is somewhat south of the region of where the Saami apparently originate, but it is known that both the Finnish and the Saami languages are related and are of the Uralic language family in origin.

    The Saami are said to have migrated to what is now northwestern Russia and to what is now the Scandinavian peninsula at about the time of the end of the last Ice Age and that the Finns followed maybe a few thousand years later.

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  • Linda Vixie
    replied
    Originally posted by eriks39 View Post
    I know I am abt 6% east Finnish, but mostly Norwegian. My Population Finder (PF) has surprising results. I am 97.8% western European ("Orcadian"), and 2.2% east Asian, most likely Yakutian (first mentioned people among them). . . . Are there any others out there with Finnish or Saami ancestry whose Population Finder shows Yakut ancestry?
    Hi Erik--

    I'm a new user of FTDNA and just got back my Population Finder results, which are very similar to yours:

    Western European (Orcadian) 96.83%
    East Asia (Yakut, Japanese, Mongolian) 3.17%
    Margin of error: 0.37% on both

    A quarter of my ancestry came from Denmark, a quarter from northern Germany, and a quarter from Finland, probably eastern Finland. The other quarter is a melange of several centuries in America, but known English, German, Dutch, Swiss, Scottish.

    So yes, this result given my Finnish results is intriguing and your posts have helped me understand this.

    I have 251 matches at FTDNA (only two suggested third cousins), and most of them have Finnish names. I think there must be a lot of Finnish participants in this database.

    Have you found others with the Orcadian/Yakut profile?

    Linda

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by J Man
    Originally posted by s trangsrud View Post
    Their Y-DNA all has reasonably close matches with their Finnic and Scandinavian neighbors, so would have been recently introduced, (like with the language). I wouldn't place a bet on what the indigenous Y-DNA was 6000 years ago.
    Like I said only ancient DNA can give us the answers we are seeking here. Y-DNA does seem to change more than mtDNA though among many populations as many migrations in the past were male biased or the communities practiced patrilocal marriage patterns where mtDNA haplogroups would then be widely dispersed and follow no real pattern.
    True.

    In the Saami there is this "indigenous" part, which would represent the earliest inhabitants of Lapland after the Ice Age (and the haplogroup of which we don't know), but there are many other parts from different directions; only one part is connected to the Saami language, and it also may have had many haplogroups as carriers, at least in the different waves of expansions:
    1. From Volga bend to Upper Volga
    2. From Upper Volga to the Ladoga area
    3. From Ladoga area to Lapland

    Because there were temporal gaps between these waves, the genetic composition may have been different in every stage.

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by s trangsrud View Post
    Their Y-DNA all has reasonably close matches with their Finnic and Scandinavian neighbors, so would have been recently introduced, (like with the language). I wouldn't place a bet on what the indigenous Y-DNA was 6000 years ago.
    Like I said only ancient DNA can give us the answers we are seeking here. Y-DNA does seem to change more than mtDNA though among many populations as many migrations in the past were male biased or the communities practiced patrilocal marriage patterns where mtDNA haplogroups would then be widely dispersed and follow no real pattern.

    Leave a comment:


  • s trangsrud
    replied
    Originally posted by J Man View Post
    It is impossible to truly know what the haplogroups of these ancient Uralic speaking ancestors of the Saami and Finns are without actual ancient DNA evidence but I have a feeling that they are mostly probably N1c1 and I1 for Y-DNA and U5b1b1a1 for mtDNA. There has been some speculation before and again recently that mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b1a1 may be related to ancient Uralic speakers who at some point in the past spread into Finland.
    Their Y-DNA all has reasonably close matches with their Finnic and Scandinavian neighbors, so would have been recently introduced, (like with the language). I wouldn't place a bet on what the indigenous Y-DNA was 6000 years ago.

    Leave a comment:


  • derinos
    replied
    Who is genuinely Saami?

    Originally posted by Tourist View Post
    Archeologists have been able to trace the history of human population in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula. They have found that the original inhabitants were the Saami etc.......

    For instance, the Saami are THE ONLY legally recognized "indigenous" peoples IN ALL OF EUROPE. Not even the Basque qualify for that.
    Excellent!
    So, if this is a "legally recognised indigenous" identity, can you please say what criteria would be required to qualify a modern person as being identified as a bona fide member of "The Saami" ?
    Habitual Language, place of birth, Family tree, DNA, physiognomy? Or all of the above? Or more? Thank you!

    AND Please, what language is the beautiful lady singing? You know, "Työlki ellää, mut kaupal rikastuu.."
    Last edited by derinos; 11 February 2012, 04:22 PM. Reason: Spelling

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  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Jaska View Post
    According to the new linguistic studies, the Saami language only spread to Scandinavia within the last 2000 years, and Finnish yet 1000 years later. There are traces of a Palaeo-European substrate language behind Saami, so we can conclude that Scandinavia was earlier inhabited by a folk speaking an unknown language.
    http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf

    Of course there is to a certain extent a genetic and archaeological continuity in Saami (and Scandinavians, too), but the ethnicity or language was not Saami until the Iron Age.


    Archaeology cannot tell about language or ethnic identity, only about material culture. We cannot call those early inhabitants Saami because they didn’t speak Saami and didn’t have Saami identity.
    It is impossible to truly know what the haplogroups of these ancient Uralic speaking ancestors of the Saami and Finns are without actual ancient DNA evidence but I have a feeling that they are mostly probably N1c1 and I1 for Y-DNA and U5b1b1a1 for mtDNA. There has been some speculation before and again recently that mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b1a1 may be related to ancient Uralic speakers who at some point in the past spread into Finland.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Tourist
    Keep in mind that Germanic Scandinavians arrived only a few thousand years ago, in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula, and prior to that time most of that entire region was populated by the Saami and Finns. The Saami date back to the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, and the Finns came sometime after that, but long before the Germanic Scandinavians arrived, there.
    According to the new linguistic studies, the Saami language only spread to Scandinavia within the last 2000 years, and Finnish yet 1000 years later. There are traces of a Palaeo-European substrate language behind Saami, so we can conclude that Scandinavia was earlier inhabited by a folk speaking an unknown language.
    http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf

    Of course there is to a certain extent a genetic and archaeological continuity in Saami (and Scandinavians, too), but the ethnicity or language was not Saami until the Iron Age.

    Originally posted by Tourist
    Archeologists have been able to trace the history of human population in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula. They have found that the original inhabitants were the Saami since the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, then followed a few thousand years later by Finnic peoples, although mostly in what is now Finland, which helps to explain why the Saami languages and the Finnish languages are distantly related, and the first evidence of Germanic Scandinavians there dates to about 5,000 years ago.
    Archaeology cannot tell about language or ethnic identity, only about material culture. We cannot call those early inhabitants Saami because they didn’t speak Saami and didn’t have Saami identity.

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  • thetick
    replied
    The results are just matching your sample to those population samples. It does not mean you necessarily have any of those ancestries. Until FTDNA adds Swedish and Sami population samples your results are pretty worthless since you already knew you are European. PF is pretty worthless for many. Let's hope many more populations are added.


    In the mean time if you are computer savvy you can use DIYDodecad / Oracle and all the various calculators to get a better idea of your ancestry.

    See http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/09/...ecad-v-21.html
    and
    http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/07/...oracle-v1.html

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    European ancestry

    hello
    I was tested by Family Findern recently. My hertitage is all Europe from all over Europe except the baltic countries,germany,Austria,Polen,Portugal Iceland,Norway,Denmark. They said that I was Finnish,Orcadian,French,Russian,Roumania,Spanish. The strange thing most of my ancestors came from northern Sweden more than 10 generations ago. I am a little finnish in my pedigree and my maternal grandfather was half Sami from northern Sweden. Can anyone explane?

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