The Finns, the Saami and the Yakuts

[Tourist]

And Tourist, I know there are many people who can't tell Finns from Russians, and I also find that irritating.

OK, eriks, we have met, and we are now friends. Good to meet you!

Your name is Erik? My name is Doug. My wife, Hannele, is from Kemi, Finland. Kemi is in southern Lapland.

[derinos]

Finnish Singing

OK, eriks, we have met, and we are now friends. Good to meet you!

Your name is Erik? My name is Doug. My wife, Hannele, is from Kemi, Finland. Kemi is in southern Lapland.

My name is Keith and I am just an I1a(n). That Hg also turns up sometimes in Lapland too.
The reason for this message is that the music you linked in was a marvellous choice. Those two superb Finnish blonde singers explained that they sang in a "Dialect". What was it, a Saami contribution to Finnish?
I met in the 1950's, and much liked, many Finns in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada; a place which looks just like Karelia. They taught me to sing "Pium paum, kehto heilata" to my guitar.

There is a joke told there of a Polish lumberjack who on arrival was sent to a lumber camp and assured he would, out there, soon learn English. When he arrived back in town 3 months later the English hotel receptionist could not understand him. A crowd gathered. Soon someone from the back spoke up. "He's speaking in Finnish!".

[PDHOTLEN]

My father's paternal line goes back to Norway; way back up the Sogne Fjord (Luster area). My Y-DNA haplogroup/type is R1a1a1. But it looks like I could be from a Finnish line in Norway. A thread on the DNA-Forums has input by a knowledgeable person that may point me back to a Finnish infusion 4,000 years ago. A fairly close match (7/67) is from a location of an ancient Finnish colony on the Swedish border. My sub-group is currently labeled NW3, and there are very few of us so far. One pops up in Finland, several in Norway, and about 3 in England (probably from Vikings). I don't know whether to trust this Finnish connection or not. I'm just tossing it into the ring. Ultimately, all R1a came from the direction of Russia/Ukraine anyway.

[Tourist]

My father's paternal line goes back to Norway; way back up the Sogne Fjord (Luster area). My Y-DNA haplogroup/type is R1a1a1. But it looks like I could be from a Finnish line in Norway. A thread on the DNA-Forums has input by a knowledgeable person that may point me back to a Finnish infusion 4,000 years ago. A fairly close match (7/67) is from a location of an ancient Finnish colony on the Swedish border. My sub-group is currently labeled NW3, and there are very few of us so far. One pops up in Finland, several in Norway, and about 3 in England (probably from Vikings). I don't know whether to trust this Finnish connection or not. I'm just tossing it into the ring. Ultimately, all R1a came from the direction of Russia/Ukraine anyway.

DNA says NOTHING about religion, politics or nationality, and can span literally thousands of years of time.

Keep in mind that Germanic Scandinavians arrived only a few thousand years ago, in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula, and prior to that time most of that entire region was populated by the Saami and Finns. The Saami date back to the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, and the Finns came sometime after that, but long before the Germanic Scandinavians arrived, there.

[PDHOTLEN]

DNA says NOTHING about religion, politics or nationality, and can span literally thousands of years of time.

Keep in mind that Germanic Scandinavians arrived only a few thousand years ago, in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula, and prior to that time most of that entire region was populated by the Saami and Finns. The Saami date back to the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, and the Finns came sometime after that, but long before the Germanic Scandinavians arrived, there.

Thank you for that. It clarifies the broad situation for me. As for my own paternal lineage, I still have a lot to uncover. Today I ordered another SNP test (Z284) to help with that.

[Svein Davidsen]

Keep in mind that Germanic Scandinavians arrived only a few thousand years ago, in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula, and prior to that time most of that entire region was populated by the Saami and Finns. The Saami date back to the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, and the Finns came sometime after that, but long before the Germanic Scandinavians arrived, there.

This is the first time I have seen, or heard of, this interpretation of the way Scandinavia was populated. Have you any references to scientific articles explaining and proving this scenario? It may possibly be true for some east/north east region of Finland, but certainly for Denmark and Norway it is not the commonly held view of our ancient history.

See for example B M Dupuy et al. "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" http://vetinari.sitesled.com/norway.pdf

[Tourist]

This is the first time I have seen, or heard of, this interpretation of the way Scandinavia was populated. Have you any references to scientific articles explaining and proving this scenario? It may possibly be true for some east/north east region of Finland, but certainly for Denmark and Norway it is not the commonly held view of our ancient history.

See for example B M Dupuy et al. "Geographical heterogeneity of Y-chromosomal lineages in Norway" http://vetinari.sitesled.com/norway.pdf

Archeologists have been able to trace the history of human population in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula. They have found that the original inhabitants were the Saami since the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, then followed a few thousand years later by Finnic peoples, although mostly in what is now Finland, which helps to explain why the Saami languages and the Finnish languages are distantly related, and the first evidence of Germanic Scandinavians there dates to about 5,000 years ago.

There is a great deal of international research and evidence to substantiate such claims.

For instance, the Saami are THE ONLY legally recognized "indigenous" peoples IN ALL OF EUROPE. Not even the Basque qualify for that.

[Roland]

European ancestry

I know I am abt 6% east Finnish, but mostly Norwegian. My Population Finder (PF) has surprising results. I am 97.8% western European ("Orcadian"), and 2.2% east Asian, most likely Yakutian (first mentioned people among them). Jeroen R Huyghe et al. in their article A genome-wide analysis of population structure in the Finnish Saami with implications for genetic association studies in European Journal of Human Genetics (19, 2010, p. 347-352) found that the Saami are around 6% of east Asian ancestry, having an IBS (identity-by-state) sharing with the Yakuts of 0.7328. This could mean I have Saami ancestors, but that doesn't show in PF. My ancestors who could be of Saami descent lived in the territory of the so called Pite Saami, just south of Bodo, Nordland, Norway. I wonder why my Population Finder does not show my east Finnish or Saami ancestry. I have been told that there is no east Finnish reference group yet, but still. By the way I know that the population of Northern Savo in east Finland has a modest Saami component, perhaps about 6%. But could the Yakut ancestry have come through the east Finns and not the Saami? The graves on the island Olene Ostrov in Lake Onega, Karelia, Russia, contains some people with "Mongoloid" skulls. R. A. Denisova wrote that these skulls don't differ much from the Yakuts, except for the noses. (Erik Nilsson-Mankok (ed.): Etnogenesen av de finsk-ugriska folken, Umea, Sweden 1984, p. 22.) The answer could of course be a combination of all of these factors. Are there any others out there with Finnish or Saami ancestry whose Population Finder shows Yakut ancestry?

[Roland]

European ancestry

hello
I was tested by Family Findern recently. My hertitage is all Europe from all over Europe except the baltic countries,germany,Austria,Polen,Portugal Iceland,Norway,Denmark. They said that I was Finnish,Orcadian,French,Russian,Roumania,Spanish. The strange thing most of my ancestors came from northern Sweden more than 10 generations ago. I am a little finnish in my pedigree and my maternal grandfather was half Sami from northern Sweden. Can anyone explane?

[thetick]

The results are just matching your sample to those population samples. It does not mean you necessarily have any of those ancestries. Until FTDNA adds Swedish and Sami population samples your results are pretty worthless since you already knew you are European. PF is pretty worthless for many. Let's hope many more populations are added.


In the mean time if you are computer savvy you can use DIYDodecad / Oracle and all the various calculators to get a better idea of your ancestry.

See http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/09/...ecad-v-21.html
and

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/07/dodecad-oracle-v1.html

[Jaska]

Keep in mind that Germanic Scandinavians arrived only a few thousand years ago, in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula, and prior to that time most of that entire region was populated by the Saami and Finns. The Saami date back to the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, and the Finns came sometime after that, but long before the Germanic Scandinavians arrived, there.

According to the new linguistic studies, the Saami language only spread to Scandinavia within the last 2000 years, and Finnish yet 1000 years later. There are traces of a Palaeo-European substrate language behind Saami, so we can conclude that Scandinavia was earlier inhabited by a folk speaking an unknown language.
http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf

Of course there is to a certain extent a genetic and archaeological continuity in Saami (and Scandinavians, too), but the ethnicity or language was not Saami until the Iron Age.

Archeologists have been able to trace the history of human population in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula. They have found that the original inhabitants were the Saami since the end of the last Ice Age, some ten thousand years ago, then followed a few thousand years later by Finnic peoples, although mostly in what is now Finland, which helps to explain why the Saami languages and the Finnish languages are distantly related, and the first evidence of Germanic Scandinavians there dates to about 5,000 years ago.

Archaeology cannot tell about language or ethnic identity, only about material culture. We cannot call those early inhabitants Saami because they didn’t speak Saami and didn’t have Saami identity.

[J Man]

According to the new linguistic studies, the Saami language only spread to Scandinavia within the last 2000 years, and Finnish yet 1000 years later. There are traces of a Palaeo-European substrate language behind Saami, so we can conclude that Scandinavia was earlier inhabited by a folk speaking an unknown language.
http://www.sgr.fi/susa/91/aikio.pdf

Of course there is to a certain extent a genetic and archaeological continuity in Saami (and Scandinavians, too), but the ethnicity or language was not Saami until the Iron Age.


Archaeology cannot tell about language or ethnic identity, only about material culture. We cannot call those early inhabitants Saami because they didn’t speak Saami and didn’t have Saami identity.

It is impossible to truly know what the haplogroups of these ancient Uralic speaking ancestors of the Saami and Finns are without actual ancient DNA evidence but I have a feeling that they are mostly probably N1c1 and I1 for Y-DNA and U5b1b1a1 for mtDNA. There has been some speculation before and again recently that mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b1a1 may be related to ancient Uralic speakers who at some point in the past spread into Finland.

[derinos]

Who is genuinely Saami?

Archeologists have been able to trace the history of human population in what is now the Scandinavian peninsula. They have found that the original inhabitants were the Saami etc.......

For instance, the Saami are THE ONLY legally recognized "indigenous" peoples IN ALL OF EUROPE. Not even the Basque qualify for that.

Excellent!
So, if this is a "legally recognised indigenous" identity, can you please say what criteria would be required to qualify a modern person as being identified as a bona fide member of "The Saami" ?
Habitual Language, place of birth, Family tree, DNA, physiognomy? Or all of the above? Or more? Thank you!

AND Please, what language is the beautiful lady singing? You know, "Työlki ellää, mut kaupal rikastuu.."

[s trangsrud]

It is impossible to truly know what the haplogroups of these ancient Uralic speaking ancestors of the Saami and Finns are without actual ancient DNA evidence but I have a feeling that they are mostly probably N1c1 and I1 for Y-DNA and U5b1b1a1 for mtDNA. There has been some speculation before and again recently that mtDNA haplogroup U5b1b1a1 may be related to ancient Uralic speakers who at some point in the past spread into Finland.

Their Y-DNA all has reasonably close matches with their Finnic and Scandinavian neighbors, so would have been recently introduced, (like with the language). I wouldn't place a bet on what the indigenous Y-DNA was 6000 years ago.

[J Man]

Their Y-DNA all has reasonably close matches with their Finnic and Scandinavian neighbors, so would have been recently introduced, (like with the language). I wouldn't place a bet on what the indigenous Y-DNA was 6000 years ago.

Like I said only ancient DNA can give us the answers we are seeking here. Y-DNA does seem to change more than mtDNA though among many populations as many migrations in the past were male biased or the communities practiced patrilocal marriage patterns where mtDNA haplogroups would then be widely dispersed and follow no real pattern.