The Finns, the Saami and the Yakuts

[192971]

How about throwing Samis out of the picture? I mean, isn't it possible that Norwegian vikings sailing east to Permia might have returned home with somebody having some Yakut ancestors?

[mixedkid]

I have very much enjoyed this thread. For me anyway, it has been one of the most thought provoking discussions I have ever seen in these forums. It has even stimulated discussions with my own first cousins.

[Tourist]

Perhaps we could enjoy some music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=2D3796rsgxc

Rakkauteni teille

[cecemoore]

Another Finn

I am 25% Finnish and have TONS of Finnish matches at both 23andMe and here on FF. I have to agree that the many Finns that I have met and worked with because of these matches are, as a whole, the most helpful, kind people I have had the pleasure of interacting with.
My Population Finder shows Western European (Orcadian) 98.93%±1.31%. Where is my Finnish?? I look forward to importing my mother's 23andMe results here to see what 50% Finnish looks like. Our mtDNA is U5b1b2. Although I don't think this is the exact subclade for Saami's, there were some Saami-like physical traits in my grandmother's family.

[Tourist]

Where is my Finnish??...Although I don't think this is the exact subclade for Saami's, there were some Saami-like physical traits in my grandmother's family.

This is a difficult area to explore. It has been found that Finns and Saami are two different genetic groups, generally speaking, but because those two groups have lived in the same region for at least the past few thousand years, there has been some intermarriage, etc. Another consideration, yet to be explained, is that a high percentage of Saami females exhibit western European genetic patterns, heading toward ancient Portugal and Spain, while a high percentage of Saami males exhibit eastern genetic patterns, heading toward Ural mountains. These matters could become clearer in time, in the future, once enough DNA testing has been done.

[eriks39]

How about throwing Samis out of the picture? I mean, isn't it possible that Norwegian vikings sailing east to Permia might have returned home with somebody having some Yakut ancestors?

This is an intriguing idea... But more relevant I think the sailings between Western Europe and Arkhangelsk in Russia, along the Norwegian coast. The district where my mother is born was full of old legends of French, Spanish, English, Dutch and German ships that sunk, and sailors leaving behind children as they left. The local brunettes are said to be essentially different from the local blondes. Having said that, I have never seen evidence of foreign sailors as fathers except for a couple of cases.

[k.o.gran]

This is an intriguing idea... But more relevant I think the sailings between Western Europe and Arkhangelsk in Russia, along the Norwegian coast. The district where my mother is born was full of old legends of French, Spanish, English, Dutch and German ships that sunk, and sailors leaving behind children as they left. The local brunettes are said to be essentially different from the local blondes. Having said that, I have never seen evidence of foreign sailors as fathers except for a couple of cases.

This is a bit off topic, but my paternal great grandfather was born as a result of a Scot sailing from Dundee to Arkhangelsk. I guess he decided to have a sleep over in Norway...

-Kai

[eriks39]

Hi Kai, is this Scotsman mentioned in the Orcadian Samuel Laing's famous diary?

[eriks39]

I have very much enjoyed this thread. For me anyway, it has been one of the most thought provoking discussions I have ever seen in these forums. It has even stimulated discussions with my own first cousins.

Good it is good for something... And if you knew me you would not be surprised that I (unintentionally) get into provoking discussions...

[eriks39]

Ystäväni, I did not say that you said such things, and I do not see how or where you could have made such an interpretation. What I meant is that much of the Uralic language region is now, today, in Russia, but that the Uralic speakers, the natives of that region, were there LONG before any Russian ever went there. Yes, the Samoyed are the easternmost Uralic speakers, but the eastern border of the Samoyed region borders northern Yakutsk, and that is how you could have a Yakutsk ancestor.

A Saami friend of mine lives in Kautokeino, Norway.

We can safely agree that the Uralic speakers were in the region long before the Russians came there, and it seems you have a special need to stress that every time you write, but I think no-one can disagree with you there. But back to your view that Samoyeds lived near the Yakut/Sakha region. The easternmost Samoyeds was the socalled Sayan-Samoyeds and the Mator (Motor) peoples. They are now extinct linguistically speaking. They lived in the Sayan mountain region in southern Siberia, almost in Mongolia. It is still some distance to Yakutia/Sakha.

If we were to discuss a similar case including the Indoeuropean peoples, it is easy to think of the Tocharians, the easternmost Indoeuropean people that has existed. They are now extinct too (and have been extinct for a long time), and they lived as far east as the Xinjiang region of northwestern China. Do you believe that all Indoeuropean peoples, including Scandinavians, Teutonic (Germanic) peoples, Spaniards, Celts etc., have ancestors from Xinjiang because one related people once lived there? I don't think anyone thinks that. The case is the same with the Samoyeds - no-one thinks their ancestral home was the Sayan mountains to my knowledge. (I have never read any presentation of the Uralic language group that has claimed this. They do however say that the place Uralic language originated probably was in Europe.)

[k.o.gran]

Hi Kai, is this Scotsman mentioned in the Orcadian Samuel Laing's famous diary?

Not that I know of.

-Kai

[Amyjeanne]

Thank you for the interesting information about Finns, Saamis, and their origins. I have no paper trail connection to these countries as yet, but I recently received my FGS results. I am H31, and have 8 FGS matches. Of these eight, four are from Finland and one is from Sweden.
The rest are from France, Germany, and Poland.

[Tourist]

...it seems you have a special need to stress that every time you write...

OK, I now understand that you know. However, 99 out of 100 people have no understanding that the Uralic peoples are not Russian.

If we were to discuss a similar case including the Indoeuropean peoples, it is easy to think of the Tocharians, the easternmost Indoeuropean people that has existed. They are now extinct too (and have been extinct for a long time), and they lived as far east as the Xinjiang region of northwestern China. Do you believe that all Indoeuropean peoples, including Scandinavians, Teutonic (Germanic) peoples, Spaniards, Celts etc., have ancestors from Xinjiang because one related people once lived there? I don't think anyone thinks that. The case is the same with the Samoyeds - no-one thinks their ancestral home was the Sayan mountains to my knowledge. (I have never read any presentation of the Uralic language group that has claimed this. They do however say that the place Uralic language originated probably was in Europe.)

Today, in the year 2011, we can point to a map and then point to the modern borders of where Uralic speakers can be found. But for thousands upon thousands of years the Saami were nomadic hunters, who changed their locations throughout the year, and so there never was an actual border to the areas where they could be found. And, if nomadic hunting was common to all of the Uralic peoples, if they did not live within borders, then it is possible that your Yakutsk ancestor met your eastern Uralic ancestors while they were on a hunting expedition. The borders we recognize today might not have existed thousands of years ago.

[derinos]

OK, I now understand that you know. However, 99 out of 100 people have no understanding that the Uralic peoples are not Russian.


Today, in the year 2011, we can point to a map and then point to the modern borders of where Uralic speakers can be found. But for thousands upon thousands of years the Saami were nomadic hunters, who changed their locations throughout the year, and so there never was an actual border to the areas where they could be found. And, if nomadic hunting was common to all of the Uralic peoples, if they did not live within borders, then it is possible that your Yakutsk ancestor met your eastern Uralic ancestors while they were on a hunting expedition. The borders we recognize today might not have existed thousands of years ago.

Well said! In many DNA discussions we have trouble defining what "is" (or "are) means. The various "find out what your are" DNA services report under modern Political designations the area in which a given client DNA is significantly present.

An area in which one's DNA is found densely present today may use a language, or issue a passport , under a national name very different from where one's precious DNA signature began. Or spent some time.

People call me English because of the language I am using here, but my I1a(N) Haplogroup hid in Sardinia in the LGM (Last Glacial Maximum), then walked North to Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland , finally sailng to Wales, then USA. I once thought I was Welsh, but "am" I really Sardinian-American? Or going farther back before the LGM , Balkan- or African-? Help!

[eriks39]

Thanks to all for interesting input. Now I am sorry to say that the premises for my question has fallen away. I was told yesterday that Population Finder only can detect specific ethnic ancestry 2,000 years back. This means that it could be less probable that the Yakut blood came through the Saami's non-Finno-Ugrian ancestors.

Perhaps I should search elsewhere in my ancestry. And perhaps I don't have Saami ancestors at all.

Besides the Yakuts some other East Asian groups was also mentioned in my Population Finder, perhaps it is not even Yakuts I am looking for. These news only contribute to make me confused.

And Tourist, I know there are many people who can't tell Finns from Russians, and I also find that irritating.