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The Cohen Type Is Jacob's Type

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  • The Cohen Type Is Jacob's Type

    I do not read the bible literally, but my guess is that the bible does a pretty good job of describing the early history of the Jews. Even if there are errors in places, the errors themselves probably give useful information.

    Example: If you take the bible literally, you see that there's a pretty good chance that a large percentage of Jews were not patrilineal descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob even in biblical times, but that the leaders of the Jewish tribes -- the aristocrats -- were patrilineal descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob.

    Aaron (the first Cohen) and his brother, Moses, are supposed to be patrilineal descendants of Jacob through Jacob's son Levi. My understanding is that there are supposed to be only a few hundred years separating Aaron from Jacob, so that would mean Aaron should have had a Y chromosome haplotype that was almost identical to the haplotypes of other patrilineal descendants of Abraham.

    Implications: people talk as if there's a Cohen haplotype and wonder why it's spread pretty thoroughly throughout all Jewish populations while a Levite type and specific Israelite types are hard to detect.

    I think the obvious conclusion you get from looking at the biblical genealogies is that, if the biblical teaching that Abraham was the progenitor of the 12 tribes of Israel is true, the "Cohen haplotype" should be the haplotype for all descendants of Abraham, not just Abraham, and you ought to be able to figure out whether "Ur of the Chaldees" really is the right Ur (apparently, there's some controversy about the subject) by looking for the area of the Levant that has the highest concentration of non-Jewishy me with what is believed to be Abraham's version of the Cohen haplotype.

  • #2
    Originally posted by allbell
    Implications: people talk as if there's a Cohen haplotype and wonder why it's spread pretty thoroughly throughout all Jewish populations while a Levite type and specific Israelite types are hard to detect.
    .
    I thought that the Cohen markers are only found in 3 to 5% of Jews without Cohen name or oral history of such (and 50% of those with Cohen name)-Hammer's research. That doesnt sound like "spread pretty thoroughly"-seems pretty small. Can you clarify the seeming contradiction? thanks.

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    • #3
      If the Israelites were descended from the twelve sons of Jacob, and if Aaron is descended from Jacob patrilineally, then the inescapable conclusion is that Jacob belonged to haplogroup J1 with the Cohen Modal Haplotype or similar. Abraham must also have belonged to haplogroup J1 with the Cohen Modal Haplotype or similar.

      The Cohens were probably more "conservative", because they had to show that they were descendants of a priest to be accepted into the priesthood. One could become a Jew by conversion, but one could not become a Cohen by conversion, because he was not descended from a Cohen.

      Almost all Samaritans carry the CMH, and the Samaritans are descended from ancient Israelites and are very endogamous, unlike the Jews who reckon Jewish-ness based on maternal Jewish origin. This further proves that the ancient Israelites had primarily the CMH and all non-CMH chromosomes are of non-Jewish origin.

      About 50% of Cohens and 5% non-Cohen Jews are descended patrilineally from the patriarchs of Israel.

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      • #4
        one small problem with all your logic actually more then one but one giant one

        you are jewish by your mom
        so your mom helen goldberg dau of isaac and sophia married james denning
        and we have samuel denning and abraham . they are jewish
        and if sarah denning marries jacob goldberg they arent

        in the travels like the time in eygpt they intermarried for all sorts of reasons political and otherwise. i mean the actual religion wasnt yet established on sinai.

        on this ocaasion the movie the 10 conmandments show the problem those black men came to the promised land with moses adopted mom . they be came blended into the tribes. other tribes did . some god said dont allow them to mix.

        now you have all this and sarah and abraham getting pregnant at 90+ whats god dna ?

        the bible is literal as much as our science is as recent weak show revelations asks the question can you prove is a baby is either christ come again ior the anti christ
        and the answer is yeah because christ is the seed of a woman that crushed the head of the serpent in the garden of olives. the only way you get a seed of the women is to reactivate marys male organs deep inside of her. where the male ydna? what Haplotype would that be?

        better we leave religion to those that do that and not prove we dont know or what we think we know

        i am sitting here saying why did i type this but someone has to
        ps the 12 tribes had at least 4 mothers one whom was egyptian nobility
        and were raised egyptian princes as was moses before the calling out.

        so eb3 1and 2 and e2b as well as j and other can be jewish.
        i once asked genealogy-dna-l if it is ever right to assume one force is one Haplotype. they said no. i agree

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by penguin
          I thought that the Cohen markers are only found in 3 to 5% of Jews without Cohen name or oral history of such (and 50% of those with Cohen name)-Hammer's research. That doesnt sound like "spread pretty thoroughly"-seems pretty small. Can you clarify the seeming contradiction? thanks.
          a) Note: Maybe my post made it seem as if I take the bible more literally than I do. I'm not saying that I think God wrote the bible and that the biblical genealogy is true. I'm saying that I think it's reasonable to assume, for the sake of argument, that the biblical genealogies are correct and to see where that leads you in terms of genetic genealogical hypotheses.

          b) We're living about 3,500 years, or at least 150 generations, after Jacob is supposed to have entered Egypt. I'm not sure if I'm applying the math correctly, but, if 3% of Israelite Jewish men have the CMH gene today, and 100% of the Jewish men (or Hebrews, or whatever they were) had it 3,500 years ago, then I think that means that about 98% of the "Jewish Israelite fathers" in the second generation of Jewish Israelite men really were sons of the original CMH men, and .98*.98 of the "Jewish Israelite fathers" in the second generation were the grandsons of original CMH men, and so on down the line.

          If that analysis is correct, in any given generation, non-CMH men would have fathered only 2% of the Jewish boys who went on to sire lines that remain in the Jewish population today, but, over the course of 150 generations, that 2%-per-generation admixture has really added up.

          In reality, the average effect of guys coming in on the modern Jewish Y chromosome pool might be much smaller (say, 1% per year), because it seems clear from the bible itself that, even according to the literal biblical tradition, a lot of the ancient Jewish men were not patrilineal descendants of Abraham.
          Last edited by allbell; 28 April 2005, 12:44 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Jim Denning
            one small problem with all your logic actually more then one but one giant one

            you are jewish by your mom
            so your mom helen goldberg dau of isaac and sophia married james denning
            and we have samuel denning and abraham . they are jewish
            and if sarah denning marries jacob goldberg they arent
            a) I'm really talking about Y chromosomes here, not religion. When I write "modern Jewish men," that's shorthand for, "The types of guys who might be included in a study of the Jewish ethnic group, even if they happen to be Buddhist monks or fervent atheists."

            b) Jews decided Judaism comes through the mother after the end of the biblical era. In biblical times, Jews inherited their religion from their fathers (and maybe also from their moms, but think how hard it must have been for a woman to impose a strange religion on her husband back then). But Jews inherited, and still inherit, their tribal affiliation from their fathers. Not that the tribe stuff means anything, in and of itself, but here it creates a conclusion that you can test with DNA testing.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by allbell
              a)
              b) Jews decided Judaism comes through the mother after the end of the biblical era. In biblical times, Jews inherited their religion from their fathers (and maybe also from their moms, but think how hard it must have been for a woman to impose a strange religion on her husband back then). But Jews inherited, and still inherit, their tribal affiliation from their fathers. Not that the tribe stuff means anything, in and of itself, but here it creates a conclusion that you can test with DNA testing.
              here is the error most genetists make about this dna the above applies to all groups. if a man wanted a women he didnt care usually still doesnt . but the above situations were people in the way of a migrating group. if they tried to join and be assimulated they suffered not and went with the crowd and new males were allowed to enter the stock before long they were fully jewish ,blackfoot,mongrel, tutsi, macedonean. these people didnt fight and were taken in like the black servents to moses adopted mom they just be came levites like moses. History is important . but it usually is ignored for other values here like 30,000 years ago stories. but the mongrols sweeping west changed the native stocks either by assimulation or rape.
              the one thing you can never account for is the scene in rob roy when the british officer rapes his wife and says he will never know if that child is his.until now.
              and i believe even in biblical times tribal assignment was always by the mom . which was smart since each tribe should of been the same ydna but the mtdna was vastly different with 4 or more moms involved

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by allbell
                a) Note: Maybe my post made it seem as if I take the bible more literally than I do. I'm not saying that I think God wrote the bible and that the biblical genealogy is true. I'm saying that I think it's reasonable to assume, for the sake of argument, that the biblical genealogies are correct and to see where that leads you in terms of genetic genealogical hypotheses.

                b) We're living about 3,500 years, or at least 150 generations, after Jacob is supposed to have entered Egypt. I'm not sure if I'm applying the math correctly, but, if 3% of Israelite Jewish men have the CMH gene today, and 100% of the Jewish men (or Hebrews, or whatever they were) had it 3,500 years ago, then I think that means that about 98% of the "Jewish Israelite fathers" in the second generation of Jewish Israelite men really were sons of the original CMH men, and .98*.98 of the "Jewish Israelite fathers" in the second generation were the grandsons of original CMH men, and so on down the line.

                If that analysis is correct, in any given generation, non-CMH men would have fathered only 2% of the Jewish boys who went on to sire lines that remain in the Jewish population today, but, over the course of 150 generations, that 2%-per-generation admixture has really added up.

                In reality, the average effect of guys coming in on the modern Jewish Y chromosome pool might be much smaller (say, 1% per year), because it seems clear from the bible itself that, even according to the literal biblical tradition, a lot of the ancient Jewish men were not patrilineal descendants of Abraham.
                i really should know better but here goes abraham had a father and he had a father and so on they were in the middle east so many other people then abraham shared the same ydna .

                i was answering this before and the power went out. so i'll drop some of what i was going to say . what do you mean what a jew should be?

                i am a denning i am decended from stone masons in longford ireland 1775ish

                i am e3b1 stuck in the middle of r1bs everywhere i have 26 of 52 exact matches at 12 with askenazis. when i say they everyone says dont pay attention to it .it isnt real. but i say why?
                i can see someone named dannenberg a Sephardic being sent to britian by the normans to administer the new conquered lands . if you ever read ivanhoe. rebeccas dad was one of them. well i can see him staying and converting either by force or not. walking around england 1400 or so with berg as an ending wasnt kool. so they droped the berg. dannan is a variant of denning . if you have this name it chages almost monthly.i have been called dannan.
                i just got lord dennings book on his family and he brought the same old viking junk. we arent viking dna says so. but he also talks about normans we are that.

                so lately i have 4 25 matchs 2 of whom think they are converted jews the others germans. today in a new post someone talked abut thier rare dna and matches . well i checked it out. its very close to a rare ydna in my denning group. and guess what he belongs to the Anusim project seen below. two lines of dennings variants not close and both seem to be connected this way. oh yeah it cant be i mean 30,000 years and e3b1 . it just cant be.
                well i think it is i have matches with people whose family story is they were forced to convert. get a hold on yourself denning this cant be. neolithic farmer remember that. to heck with that .i put my cash on dannanberg.
                so if i am right and me and my fellow denning group member ar decended from converted jews. what does that make the typical stereotype jew today.i 'll tell my match
                even more so what does that make the irish.i am as irish as the day is long.
                i was assimulated. i became what the conquers were. but my ydna didnt change. which proves the point you can look like a member of the tribe of dan. but be a phillistine. and be a stonemason in longford ireland and be jew.
                like the races are crumleing so are the outward classifications. they render all classifications useless. I am what i am Irish man transplanted to american [thank god] in a long migration of my dna not some 30,000 years ago but in the last 1000 years all these matches have ftdnatip marker for less then 600 yrs thats good enough for me shalom,top of the mornin , bye pal later
                Join the Anusim Project
                Members: 45
                Website: www.familytreedna.com/public/Anusim
                Description: This group is designed for people who believe that they might be descendents of Jews who converted to Catholicism at the time of the Inquisition in Spain. (1492) All descendents of Anusim welcome!
                Surnames in Project: Cortez

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                • #9
                  TAKEN FROM "Brit-Am Now"-549

                  I believe my line that wound up in longford ireland is one of these people

                  TAKEN FROM "Brit-Am Now"-549
                  [email protected] writes:

                  3. Sephardic Jewish Blood in Western Peoples
                  Background: "Sepharad" in Hebrew is the name for Spain. Jews from Spain had
                  a great influence
                  on Jewish communities in the Mediterranean area and in the east so that
                  today all such communities
                  are considered "Sephardic". Jews from Spain and Portugal were forced to
                  convert to Catholicism and in Portugal
                  all Jewish children were kidnapped and brought up as Christians. Many
                  Descendants of these people in one way
                  or other reached areas in Western Europe.A note on the follwing study was
                  first posted in "Brit-Am Now"-238
                  item 5.
                  A certain article (DNA and the Sephardic Diaspora:Spanish and Portuguese
                  Jews in Europe By
                  Abraham D. Lavender Ph.D. from HaLapid Winter, 2003
                  <http://www.cryptojews.com/dna_and_th...c_diaspora.htm

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