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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by Mudgeeclarke View Post
    Maybe you need your own thread, Yaffa and Javelin. I don't see how your disagreement is helping Quartet, who asked a reasonable question.
    The original poster asked if there was a way to determine if their ancestor was Jewish. My original post was to Gaye because she claims certain haplogroups are Jewish. This is misleading info to the original poster since Haplogroups are older than documented religion. Haplogroups can not prove ones religious practice. Your complaining isn't going to help the original poster

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  • Mudgeeclarke
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    Why are you asking me???Your the one that posted that Wiki page and that quote was in it.
    Originally posted by Javelin
    What individuals? What are their kit numbers, in which project? Where was their earliest known maternal ancestor born?
    Maybe you need your own thread, Yaffa and Javelin. I don't see how your disagreement is helping Quartet, who asked a reasonable question.

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by Javelin View Post
    What individuals? What are their kit numbers, in which project? Where was their earliest known maternal ancestor born?

    Have you studied statistics? Maybe there are one or two examples of "no known Jewish ancestry" K1a1b1a as compared to over a thousand people who are K1a1b1a with known Jewish ancestry. The few counterexamples are statistically meaningless.
    Why are you asking me???Your the one that posted that Wiki page and that quote was in it.

    The reason that not all that haplogroup is Jewish is because DNA can not prove religious practices. Haplogroups go back further than when the bibles (all versions) were written.

    Some of the Jewish DNA studies in FTDNA require proof that you are Jewish (paper from temple records). Paper will not go back to a haplogroup 30,000 years ago or 5,000 years ago. The people who are DNA testing claiming Askenazi means those who are testing are Jewish today. Most of these people who are DNA testing would be descendants of Holocaust survivors who cant trace back on paper further than a grandparent or great grandparent since paper was destroyed and 6,000,000 + were killed.

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  • Javelin
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    Javelin, did you read this part of Wiki " However, K1a1b1a has also been found in individuals of no known Jewish ancestry, and the explanation will require further research."
    What individuals? What are their kit numbers, in which project? Where was their earliest known maternal ancestor born?

    Have you studied statistics? Maybe there are one or two examples of "no known Jewish ancestry" K1a1b1a as compared to over a thousand people who are K1a1b1a with known Jewish ancestry. The few counterexamples are statistically meaningless.

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  • Mudgeeclarke
    replied
    Red Herrings

    Seems to me a large school of red herrings just swam by, and Quartet's original question is in danger of being ignored ...

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by Javelin View Post
    There are some mitochondrial haplogroups where well over 90% of the people in the subclade have Jewish ancestry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K1a1b1a_(mtDNA)
    That still does not mean that all who have that DNA are Jewish. Haplogroups existed before the tribe of Judah existed. No one knows who converted and when. Gaye's FGS is not the norm for most. Gaye can correct me if Im wrong but I think she has like 18-20 exact FGS matches??? I have not seen anyone else claim they have that many exact FGS matches. Ask Gaye if they can prove all her FGS matches on paper are related recently. How many FGS in the world exist to how many people in general in the world? Im sure the % of FGS is very small compared to all the world population that have not DNA tested. There maybe people in existence who are Christian, Muslim ect that might match these haplogroups too that just have not tested FGS yet.


    Javelin, did you read this part of Wiki " However, K1a1b1a has also been found in individuals of no known Jewish ancestry, and the explanation will require further research."
    Last edited by Yaffa; 20 October 2011, 06:04 PM.

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  • Javelin
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    Just curious how someone would determine a haplogroup no doubt only belongs to the Jewish people an no other religion
    There are some mitochondrial haplogroups where well over 90% of the people in the subclade have Jewish ancestry.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K1a1b1a_(mtDNA)

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by GayeSherman View Post
    This is the option I would take first. There are risks with either test.

    FF:
    - Not enough DNA from Great Great Grandma to show up definitively in Population Finder.
    - Matches may be of fairly mixed DNA as well. Unless you can tie in a paper trail, you won't know which of THEIR lines is the tie in.

    mtDNA:
    - A solid paper trail from your cousin to Great Great Grandma, of course.
    - Even then, you don't know if Great Great Grandma's MATERNAL line was "Jewish" or "African" (or something else) even if she really was of Jewish or African descent.
    - Whereas African mtDNA is pretty much "L", Ashkenazi mtDNA is usually not determinable at the Low Resolution level. For example, I'm HV1b2 which is pretty slam dunk Ashkenazi - but HV and even HV1 aren't necessarily Ashkenazi.


    There's a family story in my ex-husband's family about his maternal side "Indian grandmother adopted off the reservation" in New Jersey. I had my son tested with FF. This would be his great great grandmother (unfortunately she only had one son, no mtDNA trail). So far, I'm not seeing any Native DNA but I am seeing a teensy bit of African - which makes me wonder about how "Indian" she really was. Is it possible that your gggrandma wasn't from Prussia at all?

    Gaye
    impatient adoptee with lots of mysteries to solve
    Just curious how someone would determine a haplogroup no doubt only belongs to the Jewish people an no other religion since haplogroups would have existed before the tribe of Judah existed. There aren't many FGS test compared to all the people in the world. The Jews claim their history and the creation of the world only goes back between 5000-6000 years. Haplogroups go back further than that. In other words your haplogroup is more ancient than the existence of the tribe of Judah. Your direct mother line is Jewish because you have documentation (temple records) that your mother was Jewish

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  • GayeSherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Javelin View Post
    A resonable option would be Family Finder and a basic mtDNA test (HVR1). This is nowhere near as conclusive as a full mtDNA genomic sequencing, but even a top-level haplogroup of L as opposed to H, K, or V would suggest African origins.
    This is the option I would take first. There are risks with either test.

    FF:
    - Not enough DNA from Great Great Grandma to show up definitively in Population Finder.
    - Matches may be of fairly mixed DNA as well. Unless you can tie in a paper trail, you won't know which of THEIR lines is the tie in.

    mtDNA:
    - A solid paper trail from your cousin to Great Great Grandma, of course.
    - Even then, you don't know if Great Great Grandma's MATERNAL line was "Jewish" or "African" (or something else) even if she really was of Jewish or African descent.
    - Whereas African mtDNA is pretty much "L", Ashkenazi mtDNA is usually not determinable at the Low Resolution level. For example, I'm HV1b2 which is pretty slam dunk Ashkenazi - but HV and even HV1 aren't necessarily Ashkenazi.


    There's a family story in my ex-husband's family about his maternal side "Indian grandmother adopted off the reservation" in New Jersey. I had my son tested with FF. This would be his great great grandmother (unfortunately she only had one son, no mtDNA trail). So far, I'm not seeing any Native DNA but I am seeing a teensy bit of African - which makes me wonder about how "Indian" she really was. Is it possible that your gggrandma wasn't from Prussia at all?

    Gaye
    impatient adoptee with lots of mysteries to solve

    Leave a comment:


  • Javelin
    replied
    A resonable option would be Family Finder and a basic mtDNA test (HVR1). This is nowhere near as conclusive as a full mtDNA genomic sequencing, but even a top-level haplogroup of L as opposed to H, K, or V would suggest African origins.

    Leave a comment:


  • nathanm
    replied
    Originally posted by QUARTET View Post
    I've been e-mailing my dads cousin and she is willing to do a test. That would be a direct maternal link to the woman in question (back 4 generations). Do you think the mtDNA test for her would be the correct test to figure out if my G,G,GM was black or jewish.
    Possibly. An mtDNA haplogroup of L would suggest she had African ancestry. There are also specific sub-clades of other haplogroups found predominantly among people with Jewish ancestry. But the results won't necessarily be that clear-cut, since mtDNA only follows the direct maternal line. Our phenotype (physical attributes) comes from all our ancestral lines. As others have suggested, the FF would give you more information on all the lines. Ideally, you'd have her oldest living descendant take the FF, as her DNA contribution essentially halves each generation.
    Last edited by nathanm; 20 October 2011, 10:28 AM. Reason: speling

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by Mudgeeclarke View Post
    Agreed. 'Ditto' for me, just inserting Australian in lieu of American.
    I was surprised to find that many Germans in general with Middle Eastern Haplogroups of J and G on MT and Y DNA. Then again I think when they tested Hitlers family his family haplogroup was North African which fits in the general area of Middle Eastern/North Africa.

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  • Mudgeeclarke
    replied
    Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
    ... I have found many Germans with Middle Eastern haplogroups that were Christian in the early colonial American settlers of the US.
    Agreed. 'Ditto' for me, just inserting Australian in lieu of American.

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  • Yaffa
    replied
    Originally posted by QUARTET View Post
    I've been e-mailing my dads cousin and she is willing to do a test. That would be a direct maternal link to the woman in question (back 4 generations). Do you think the mtDNA test for her would be the correct test to figure out if my G,G,GM was black or jewish.
    The MTDNA test will tell you if that direct maternal ancestor's mother line originated out African, Middle Eastern, Western Europe, American Indian, Asian ect. This haplogroup is thousands of years old. It will not tell you if your ancestor was Jewish since that is a religion. One could turn up Middle Eastern on DNA and be practicing any religion, Jewish, Muslim, Christian ect.. I have found many Germans with Middle Eastern haplogroups that were Christian in the early colonial American settlers of the US.

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  • Mudgeeclarke
    replied
    Originally posted by QUARTET View Post
    I've been e-mailing my dads cousin and she is willing to do a test. That would be a direct maternal link to the woman in question (back 4 generations). Do you think the mtDNA test for her would be the correct test to figure out if my G,G,GM was black or jewish.
    It seems like you have some nice options, with a cousin agreeable who has a direct maternal link. 'Family Finder' (autosomal) testing, as you will read here at the FAQs, tests the broadest spectrum (Y, mt, and X) and will give you genetic/ethnic percentages from regions or continents. If you check out the FTDNA FF page "Results include" you will get the idea. FF is not exclusively designed to tick a box for ethnic origin, but will help you. (Again, you can only really prove 'tribe' by paper, although FF can lead you to 'cousins' who have the paper.)

    mtDNA will provide matrilineal descent information - mtDNA Haplogroup, and clues to ancestral origins, migrations, maps etc. Because you have a direct descendant to test, you will have an excellent idea of the deeper ancestry, but not necessarily a tight fix on four generations back.

    On the balance, if only trying one test, I think I'd go for FF - given that I think you will have more data available to use for extracting an answer for you. And you may come up with a cousin in the bigger tree who will communicate with you, and have your answer on paper as well.

    Let's see what others think, though. I am absolutely a beginner. My 'two cents' is only worth about one cent.
    Last edited by Mudgeeclarke; 20 October 2011, 09:30 AM.

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