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  • #16
    Originally posted by Javelin View Post
    A resonable option would be Family Finder and a basic mtDNA test (HVR1). This is nowhere near as conclusive as a full mtDNA genomic sequencing, but even a top-level haplogroup of L as opposed to H, K, or V would suggest African origins.
    This is the option I would take first. There are risks with either test.

    FF:
    - Not enough DNA from Great Great Grandma to show up definitively in Population Finder.
    - Matches may be of fairly mixed DNA as well. Unless you can tie in a paper trail, you won't know which of THEIR lines is the tie in.

    mtDNA:
    - A solid paper trail from your cousin to Great Great Grandma, of course.
    - Even then, you don't know if Great Great Grandma's MATERNAL line was "Jewish" or "African" (or something else) even if she really was of Jewish or African descent.
    - Whereas African mtDNA is pretty much "L", Ashkenazi mtDNA is usually not determinable at the Low Resolution level. For example, I'm HV1b2 which is pretty slam dunk Ashkenazi - but HV and even HV1 aren't necessarily Ashkenazi.


    There's a family story in my ex-husband's family about his maternal side "Indian grandmother adopted off the reservation" in New Jersey. I had my son tested with FF. This would be his great great grandmother (unfortunately she only had one son, no mtDNA trail). So far, I'm not seeing any Native DNA but I am seeing a teensy bit of African - which makes me wonder about how "Indian" she really was. Is it possible that your gggrandma wasn't from Prussia at all?

    Gaye
    impatient adoptee with lots of mysteries to solve

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    • #17
      Originally posted by GayeSherman View Post
      This is the option I would take first. There are risks with either test.

      FF:
      - Not enough DNA from Great Great Grandma to show up definitively in Population Finder.
      - Matches may be of fairly mixed DNA as well. Unless you can tie in a paper trail, you won't know which of THEIR lines is the tie in.

      mtDNA:
      - A solid paper trail from your cousin to Great Great Grandma, of course.
      - Even then, you don't know if Great Great Grandma's MATERNAL line was "Jewish" or "African" (or something else) even if she really was of Jewish or African descent.
      - Whereas African mtDNA is pretty much "L", Ashkenazi mtDNA is usually not determinable at the Low Resolution level. For example, I'm HV1b2 which is pretty slam dunk Ashkenazi - but HV and even HV1 aren't necessarily Ashkenazi.


      There's a family story in my ex-husband's family about his maternal side "Indian grandmother adopted off the reservation" in New Jersey. I had my son tested with FF. This would be his great great grandmother (unfortunately she only had one son, no mtDNA trail). So far, I'm not seeing any Native DNA but I am seeing a teensy bit of African - which makes me wonder about how "Indian" she really was. Is it possible that your gggrandma wasn't from Prussia at all?

      Gaye
      impatient adoptee with lots of mysteries to solve
      Just curious how someone would determine a haplogroup no doubt only belongs to the Jewish people an no other religion since haplogroups would have existed before the tribe of Judah existed. There aren't many FGS test compared to all the people in the world. The Jews claim their history and the creation of the world only goes back between 5000-6000 years. Haplogroups go back further than that. In other words your haplogroup is more ancient than the existence of the tribe of Judah. Your direct mother line is Jewish because you have documentation (temple records) that your mother was Jewish

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
        Just curious how someone would determine a haplogroup no doubt only belongs to the Jewish people an no other religion
        There are some mitochondrial haplogroups where well over 90% of the people in the subclade have Jewish ancestry.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K1a1b1a_(mtDNA)

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Javelin View Post
          There are some mitochondrial haplogroups where well over 90% of the people in the subclade have Jewish ancestry.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K1a1b1a_(mtDNA)
          That still does not mean that all who have that DNA are Jewish. Haplogroups existed before the tribe of Judah existed. No one knows who converted and when. Gaye's FGS is not the norm for most. Gaye can correct me if Im wrong but I think she has like 18-20 exact FGS matches??? I have not seen anyone else claim they have that many exact FGS matches. Ask Gaye if they can prove all her FGS matches on paper are related recently. How many FGS in the world exist to how many people in general in the world? Im sure the % of FGS is very small compared to all the world population that have not DNA tested. There maybe people in existence who are Christian, Muslim ect that might match these haplogroups too that just have not tested FGS yet.


          Javelin, did you read this part of Wiki " However, K1a1b1a has also been found in individuals of no known Jewish ancestry, and the explanation will require further research."
          Yaffa
          Registered User
          Last edited by Yaffa; 20 October 2011, 07:04 PM.

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          • #20
            Red Herrings

            Seems to me a large school of red herrings just swam by, and Quartet's original question is in danger of being ignored ...

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
              Javelin, did you read this part of Wiki " However, K1a1b1a has also been found in individuals of no known Jewish ancestry, and the explanation will require further research."
              What individuals? What are their kit numbers, in which project? Where was their earliest known maternal ancestor born?

              Have you studied statistics? Maybe there are one or two examples of "no known Jewish ancestry" K1a1b1a as compared to over a thousand people who are K1a1b1a with known Jewish ancestry. The few counterexamples are statistically meaningless.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Javelin View Post
                What individuals? What are their kit numbers, in which project? Where was their earliest known maternal ancestor born?

                Have you studied statistics? Maybe there are one or two examples of "no known Jewish ancestry" K1a1b1a as compared to over a thousand people who are K1a1b1a with known Jewish ancestry. The few counterexamples are statistically meaningless.
                Why are you asking me???Your the one that posted that Wiki page and that quote was in it.

                The reason that not all that haplogroup is Jewish is because DNA can not prove religious practices. Haplogroups go back further than when the bibles (all versions) were written.

                Some of the Jewish DNA studies in FTDNA require proof that you are Jewish (paper from temple records). Paper will not go back to a haplogroup 30,000 years ago or 5,000 years ago. The people who are DNA testing claiming Askenazi means those who are testing are Jewish today. Most of these people who are DNA testing would be descendants of Holocaust survivors who cant trace back on paper further than a grandparent or great grandparent since paper was destroyed and 6,000,000 + were killed.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Yaffa View Post
                  Why are you asking me???Your the one that posted that Wiki page and that quote was in it.
                  Originally posted by Javelin
                  What individuals? What are their kit numbers, in which project? Where was their earliest known maternal ancestor born?
                  Maybe you need your own thread, Yaffa and Javelin. I don't see how your disagreement is helping Quartet, who asked a reasonable question.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mudgeeclarke View Post
                    Maybe you need your own thread, Yaffa and Javelin. I don't see how your disagreement is helping Quartet, who asked a reasonable question.
                    The original poster asked if there was a way to determine if their ancestor was Jewish. My original post was to Gaye because she claims certain haplogroups are Jewish. This is misleading info to the original poster since Haplogroups are older than documented religion. Haplogroups can not prove ones religious practice. Your complaining isn't going to help the original poster

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                    • #25
                      The Wikipedia article is not great but the takeaway should not be that three people who don't claim Jewish ancestry have K1a1b1a, it's that >1,000 K1a1b1as do.

                      To return to the original poster's question, a basic mitochondrial test could definitively point to African ancestry and possibly to Jewish ancestry, but that may be harder to tell because many top-level haplogroups are common to both Near Easterners and Europeans (for example H, K, HV, V, T, X). That's why I would suggest combining a basic mtDNA test with Family Finder, which also include Population Finder. Non-trivial African ancestry will show up as African in Population Finder. Non-trivial Middle Eastern ancestry (significantly over the typical 0-10% Middle Eastern many Western Europeans get) will also be an excellent clue. If there is no African and less than about 15% Middle Eastern and a typical European haplogroup, it does not completely disprove African or Near Eastern ancestry but it does make it less likely.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by QUARTET View Post
                        Hello, I have a picture of my Great, Great grandmother on my father's side sitting with her husband during the Civil War. Family legend has always called her a "dark Jew" but she appear to be of African decent. Does anyone know what test I would use to help verify her origin, if any? My other grandparents can be traced back to the British Isles area--English, Irish, Scottish---oh and Norwegian thanks,
                        QUARTET, back to your original post. In my opinion, the autosomal Family Finder test with basic mtDNA would be a good place to start as it will be helpful. You can then take your FF raw data and use it with some of the third party sites who calculate your "admixture". It may not give you a definitive answer, but again it may help narrow it down.

                        Judy

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                        • #27
                          mtDNA Plus

                          Thanks for all the good information. I think I will start by having my father's female cousin do the mtDNA plus test ($159). I am paying for her test so don't want to have to sell the farm to get the information. It appears that the mtDNA plus test will help identify regional information about my pictured ancestor--mainly, is she of African decent and possibly why has she been know as a "Dark Jew". I am not sure if she was married when she came to America but I do know that her eventual husband was also from "Prussia" and that he enlisted in the civil war as a "Musician".
                          Does this pathway seem reasonable? I would like to get the Family finder test for myself after this initial test to help get some information on the pictured woman's husband (my GGGF). Thanks

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                          • #28
                            Photo of GGGM in question

                            African or "Dark Jew"
                            Attached Files

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                            • #29
                              Using a relatives test in my profile

                              Ahoy, I am going to order an mtDNA test for my father's cousin so we can test her maternal line back to a specific person (my GGGM). I will register her name for the sample but can I use her sample results for my project (using my name)?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by QUARTET View Post
                                I've been e-mailing my dads cousin and she is willing to do a test. That would be a direct maternal link to the woman in question (back 4 generations). Do you think the mtDNA test for her would be the correct test to figure out if my G,G,GM was black or jewish.
                                A mtdna test might not work if the African was not from that grandmothers mothers line if it was from her fathers line you need a ydna test.

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