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  • DYS 390 Question

    My father has had a 25 marker test done and another party has a 12 marker test done. They match 11 of 12 on the first 12 markers the marker that is differant is the DYS 390 marker. My father has the number of 24 and the other party has the number of 23. I was told by our group administrator that there is not a match because it was not one of the markers listed as a fast mutating marker (RED) that was mismatched and they are not related. Is this true or not. If they match on the 11 markers and only the DYS 390 marker does not match I really do not understand. I had understood that the markers listed as red were the fast mutating markers and gave indication as to the possible generation distance. What about the other markers? Sure hope I have not confused anyone here with my question, cause I truely do not understand this.

  • #2
    closeness

    to know it is close you both should up grade to 25 at least

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by SharonV45
      I was told by our group administrator that there is not a match because it was not one of the markers listed as a fast mutating marker (RED) that was mismatched and they are not related. Is this true or not. :
      Sharon, I don't believe it is true. Even the slowest markers do mutate and the mutation must be present between a fahter and his son. The last time I checked fathers and sons were related. Even if they matched on 12 of 12 you could not say that they were related. Even if they matched on 37 of 37 marker you couldn't say positively that they were related. You still need the paper trail. The matching markers just point you toward a trail worth following.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Jim Barrett
        Sharon, I don't believe it is true. Even the slowest markers do mutate and the mutation must be present between a fahter and his son. The last time I checked fathers and sons were related. Even if they matched on 12 of 12 you could not say that they were related. Even if they matched on 37 of 37 marker you couldn't say positively that they were related. You still need the paper trail. The matching markers just point you toward a trail worth following.
        i have been told by people here that if i test myself and my son and my daughters and my wife if we match nothing could be for sure .i asked then why do it ? people just cant say for sure. i am different i take 25/25 matches as posible sons of my father or grandfather and vice versa. you know adultry does happen. and there is an army and navy.
        so i concider location in it too.
        but like jim said it is a trail worth following so i watch for IRELAND,COX,STEWART,GARCIA ,CHRISTOU,MYERS,STEADMAN

        Comment


        • #5
          Some y-DNA researchers think that within R1b, DYS390=23 indicates Germanic ancestry & DYS390=24 indicates Celtic ancestry. I am skeptical of this theory, but thought I would mention it since this thread touches on the issue.

          Timothy Peterman

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          • #6
            Originally posted by T E Peterman
            Some y-DNA researchers think that within R1b, DYS390=23 indicates Germanic ancestry & DYS390=24 indicates Celtic ancestry. I am skeptical of this theory, but thought I would mention it since this thread touches on the issue.

            Timothy Peterman
            We have two Hursts tracing back to adjoining counties in Northern Virginia who have a 24/25 match. One has 390=23; the other has 390=24. Maybe they had a half-German, half-Celtic ancestor. Hah.

            Bill Hurst

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            • #7
              Of course, it is always possible that there could be a mutation at DYS 390; however, it is considered a "slow moving" marker.

              My hope is that true SNPs can be found within the population of R1b samples that can accurately distinguish between the different subclades of R1b. I don't like relying on y-str results to determine which population someone is likely to belong to for precisely the reason you outlined above.

              Timothy Peterman

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by T E Peterman
                Of course, it is always possible that there could be a mutation at DYS 390; however, it is considered a "slow moving" marker.

                My hope is that true SNPs can be found within the population of R1b samples that can accurately distinguish between the different subclades of R1b. I don't like relying on y-str results to determine which population someone is likely to belong to for precisely the reason you outlined above.

                Timothy Peterman

                i too am a skeptic i have all of garveys e3b1 and yet ftdna said undecided for even e3b. a grain of salt is always needed

                Comment


                • #9
                  The following is copied & pasted from a post made by Alan Foster at the Oxford Ancestors website. As you can see, all populations have some DYS390=24 & some DYS390=23. One could say that DYS390=24 makes Atlantic (ie, Celtic/ Iberian) more likely. One could say that DYS390=23 makes Atlantic (ie, Celtic, Iberian) less likely. But in no case does one rule out an ethnic heritage. Since many R1b websites make such a big deal out of DYS390, it would be interesting to see, among Family Tree DNA posters, how many know of a case where related people, off by one mutation out of all 25 markers, vary specifically at DYS390. Timothy Peterman

                  The following is what I quote:

                  "In this Baltic-Russian area, a sample of 159 haplotypes showed the R1b DYS390 percentages to be:

                  DYS 390=25. 28.9%;
                  DYS 390=24. 32.7%;
                  DYS 390=23. 32.1%;
                  DYS 390=22. 3.1%

                  Diversity: 68.6% (²)

                  North Sea-Baltic R1b:
                  Within the North Sea-Baltic area (Northern Germany, Denmark, Netherlands and
                  Norway) a sample of 1,227 haplotypes showed the R1b DYS390 percentages to be:

                  DYS 390=25... 10.1%.
                  DYS 390=24... 46.6%.
                  DYS 390=23... 38.1%.
                  DYS 390=22... 3.7%.

                  Diversity: 61.5% (²)

                  These percentages were less diverse than in the Russian-Baltic area - supporting the likelihood of an R1b migration/expansion from east to west along the Baltic coast. The coastal parts of the North Sea-Baltic region had more R1b diversity than in Norway and in the (German) Elbe river cities, indicating a further migration - from "Greater Frisia"(³) northwards to Norway and southwards into the Saxon lands alongside the Elbe.(4) Ultimately, North Sea-Baltic R1bs invaded England and other parts of British Isles during the period 450 to 1,000AD as part of the Germanic-speaking Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking invasion forces.

                  Alpine-South German R1b:
                  Analysis of the Yhrd data for this region indicates a migration/expansion path from Kiev (Ukraine - Russia), westwards along the River Danube (2,850 km), and north/westwards along the Rhine (1,320 km) to the North Sea. Politically, this whole region includes today's Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Austria and Switzerland, Rhineland Germany, and Southern Holland. Except for the exception given below, a sample of 1,296 haplotypes revealed the R1b percentages for this region were uniform at:

                  DYS 390=25... 8.3%.
                  DYS 390=24... 57.9%.
                  DYS 390=23... 30.1%.
                  DYS 390=22... 2.6%.

                  Diversity: 55.7% (²)

                  With the Alpine-South German group, a small sub-sample of 122 haplotypes in the eastern Danube area, showed only 53% DYS390 =24, and 13% for DYS 390=25. This higher diversity supported the notion of a migration path of the Alpine-South German group from the east, and its heightened DYS390=25 in the eastern Danube area suggests that this variant may well have split from the Russian-Baltic variant near to its source in central Russia.

                  Atlantic R1b:
                  This variant is found on the Atlantic coast, in Iberia, France and in the more remote parts of Ireland and Scotland. In order to obtain more accurate data on the
                  aboriginal/indigenous Scots/Irish, data was extracted from Capelli et al, (5) for Pitlochry and Oban in the Scots Highlands, and from Castlereigh in Central Ireland.

                  In the Atlantic region, R1b's DYS=390 showed the least diversity. A sample of 1,516 haplotypes showed its R1b's DYS390 percentages to be:

                  DYS 390=25... 10.4%.
                  DYS 390=24... 69.7%.
                  DYS 390=23... 17.8%.
                  DYS 390=22... 1.1%.

                  Diversity: 46.1% (²)

                  The origin of this sub-population is unclear, but its lack of DYS390 diversity makes it the "youngest" R1b in Europe. Some data suggested that it may have split from the Alpine-South German variant in the region of Albania, and then subsequently expanded, westwards, along the Mediterranean coast to Iberia."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Timothy called for examples of 24/25 matches where the sole mismatch is on DYS-390. This is precisely the case with some of the participants in the Pike Surname DNA Project.

                    We have a group of results that FTDNA is predicting belongs to haplogroup R1a. Of these, several have a DYS-390 value of 25, while others have a DYS-390 value of 24. The 25's all share known ancestry, but as yet the 24's do not have a paper trail that establishes common ancestry with the 25's.

                    - David.

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                    • #11
                      i am 390 24 from ireland but e3b1 so what does that say
                      just stating the obvious

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                      • #12
                        DYS 390 Question

                        My father is 21 at DYS 390 and is probably I1a. His surname is JONES.
                        What does this mean?

                        Thanks for any help.

                        Candace "Candy" (Jones) Campise
                        Centerville, TX

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          We have an example in our group where one family line with 9 participants has a value of 24 in all but one test subject who has a 23 yet they match on almost all of the other markers and are therefore related.

                          The short of it is that DYS-390 does mutate and therefore associating it with Germanic or celtic based solely on this marker is in my opinion wrong.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            the 22 variant in the 390 marker

                            Originally posted by Bill Hurst
                            We have two Hursts tracing back to adjoining counties in Northern Virginia who have a 24/25 match. One has 390=23; the other has 390=24. Maybe they had a half-German, half-Celtic ancestor. Hah.

                            Bill Hurst
                            I have a value of 22 for the 390 marker. I have looked at a lot of studies, and the 22 is found in all of them, but only at 1-2%. Does this mean there is a group somewhere that has a larger percentage than this, or does it mean that it is a rarer marker? It is the primary variant separating our group from the main Martin study.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Oops, new at this, I think I did it twice.

                              My cousins and I have a value of 22 for the 390 marker. I have looked at a lot of studies, and the 22 is found in all of them, but only at 1-2%. Does this mean there is a group somewhere that has a larger percentage than this, or does it mean that it is a rarer marker? If so, shouldnt it be easier to pinpoint where our family originated? Martin is a huge surname worldwide, so its a task from the start.
                              It is the primary variant separating our group from the main Martin study. I would be most appreciative if someone could clarify the 22 variant.

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