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  • Uprades for y-DNA?

    Hi,

    I'm new to FTDNA.
    I'm going to do (at least) an y-DNA test tomorrow.

    I'm Haplogroup R1a1a1.

    Probably I'll start with 37 or 67 markers.

    Questions is: Of course there's an upgrade to 111. But I think there are also some additional SNPs that could be tested? Is this deep clade testing?

    How pricey is a single SNPs? How many of them could be tested?
    How pricey is a whole deep clade testing, if something like that exists?

  • #2
    Welcome!

    Out of curiosity, how do you already know what your haplogroup is? Have you already tested your strs with a different company? If so, I would probably start with the deep clade/snp program with FTDNA.

    If you can provide us with more information perhaps we can help you to find an answer that better serves your overall goals.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Zaru View Post
      Out of curiosity, how do you already know what your haplogroup is? Have you already tested your strs with a different company?
      Pascal has a 23andMe account.

      That would mean, he already had a 67 Marker Y-DNA test done plus FGS mtDNA plus autosomal DNA done with 23andMe. (I think all this is included in that "All Inclusive" thing)

      Technically, the only thing that would be of interest is, testing for new subclades of R1a1a1 every few month or so. Question is, who should do that? (I dont know if 23andMe offeres this at all. I have an account with both and check Y-DNA stuff usualy with FTDNA)

      EDIT: Hmm. I just checked and dont realy know what 23andMe tests with the Y-Chromosome (how many markers and where you can check the results at all). *scratch head* DIdnt take too much interest into that part because I already had a FTDNA account. Hmm.
      Last edited by Daniel72; 31 July 2011, 10:46 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
        Pascal has a 23andMe account.

        That would mean, he already had a 67 Marker Y-DNA test done plus FGS mtDNA plus autosomal DNA done with 23andMe. (I think all this is included in that "All Inclusive" thing)

        Technically, the only thing that would be of interest is, testing for new subclades of R1a1a1 every few month or so. Question is, who should do that? (I dont know if 23andMe offeres this at all. I have an account with both and check Y-DNA stuff usualy with FTDNA)

        EDIT: Hmm. I just checked and dont realy know what 23andMe tests with the Y-Chromosome (how many markers and where you can check the results at all). *scratch head* DIdnt take too much interest into that part because I already had a FTDNA account. Hmm.
        23andMe only tests SNPs. They don't test STRs at all.

        In reference to Zaru's suggestion about going directly to SNP testing at FTDNA, that's not possible. FTDNA will not do the deep clade test until someone first has y-STR results. This is because they have no way of knowing the haplogroup, a customer's 23andMe results notwithstanding, without first having STR results from FTDNA's testing. So, the original poster will have to order at least a 12 marker test before he can order the deep clade test.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
          Pascal has a 23andMe account.

          That would mean, he already had a 67 Marker Y-DNA test done plus FGS mtDNA plus autosomal DNA done with 23andMe. (I think all this is included in that "All Inclusive" thing)

          Technically, the only thing that would be of interest is, testing for new subclades of R1a1a1 every few month or so. Question is, who should do that? (I dont know if 23andMe offeres this at all. I have an account with both and check Y-DNA stuff usualy with FTDNA)

          EDIT: Hmm. I just checked and dont realy know what 23andMe tests with the Y-Chromosome (how many markers and where you can check the results at all). *scratch head* DIdnt take too much interest into that part because I already had a FTDNA account. Hmm.
          The 23andMe determination of haplogroups is done through the custom SNPs they had added to their Illumina V3 chips. They don't test any STRs at all, so it's not the equivalent of any of FTDNA's Y-DNA STR tests, more like the deep clade test alone.

          The amount of mtDNA SNPs tested by 23andMe isn't even close to an FGS test. According to my dad's raw mtDNA file, they test 2737 SNPs. However, they aren't continuous, so it can't even be used to compare to other mtDNA haplotypes on mitoSearch, at HVR1 or HVR2.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by pascal the kraut View Post
            Hi,

            I'm new to FTDNA.
            I'm going to do (at least) an y-DNA test tomorrow.

            I'm Haplogroup R1a1a1.

            Probably I'll start with 37 or 67 markers.

            Questions is: Of course there's an upgrade to 111. But I think there are also some additional SNPs that could be tested? Is this deep clade testing?

            How pricey is a single SNPs? How many of them could be tested?
            How pricey is a whole deep clade testing, if something like that exists?
            Deep clade testing determines the specific subclade of your haplogroup, so if you already know that, it's probably not very useful. Individual SNPs can be ordered for $29, and new ones are made available for testing as they're discovered through Walk Through the Y (WTY).

            I know for N1c1, there are only a handful of Y-SNPs identified, and they're not all included in the deep clade test, so it's better to order them separately. When DNA Forums is running, people on there follow the WTY progress closely, and have a spreadsheet of N1c1 members who've tested at least 67 markers, and predict which way they'll test on the SNPs.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nathanm View Post
              The 23andMe determination of haplogroups is done through the custom SNPs they had added to their Illumina V3 chips. They don't test any STRs at all, so it's not the equivalent of any of FTDNA's Y-DNA STR tests, more like the deep clade test alone.

              The amount of mtDNA SNPs tested by 23andMe isn't even close to an FGS test. According to my dad's raw mtDNA file, they test 2737 SNPs. However, they aren't continuous, so it can't even be used to compare to other mtDNA haplotypes on mitoSearch, at HVR1 or HVR2.
              Ah, I see.

              Well, at least it ends up at the same haplogroups. If thats what one is interested in.

              My K1a4a1 for example was only found by FTDNAs FGS or 23andMe thing.
              simple HVR1 or HVR1+2 ended up with "K" alone.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Daniel72 View Post
                Ah, I see.

                Well, at least it ends up at the same haplogroups. If thats what one is interested in.

                My K1a4a1 for example was only found by FTDNAs FGS or 23andMe thing.
                simple HVR1 or HVR1+2 ended up with "K" alone.
                They better be the same! Actually they've differed at times, when one or the other of the companies were slower/quicker to adopt the changes in the Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree and mtDNA PhyloTree. I just got my mtDNA FGS results back, but FTDNA still only says I'm K2b. The K haplogroup project administrator and this tool (updated 21 Jul 2011) were able to pinpoint it to K2b1a.

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                • #9
                  I have been tested at both sites. The y DNA tested at 23andme matched the deep clade here as far as haplogroup goes . They do no provide marker numbers and still use 2009 nomenclature.

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                  • #10
                    As I've posted before, 23 doesn't always test for the same yDNA SNPs that FTDNA does, at least for yDNA Hap J. They actually reduced their haplogroup refinement for J with the v3 chip compared to what they tested with v2. Not very smart...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      R1a is a huge haplogroup, but unlike it's "brother" haplogroup, R1b, it hasn't been broken into numerous levels of well populated subclades. From what I've heard, most of the few SNPs nested under R1a come back negative, when tested for.

                      R1a is probably in need of a large scale hunt for additional SNPs; I'm sure they are there. They just haven't been found yet.

                      Timothy Peterman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by T E Peterman View Post
                        R1a is a huge haplogroup, but unlike it's "brother" haplogroup, R1b, it hasn't been broken into numerous levels of well populated subclades.
                        This is changing. To the poster: order 67 or if you can afford 111 markers, join the R1a1a and Subclades Project, then order SNPs as indicated based on your STR clustering. This will often reveal a subclade of R1a1a1. (E.g. many Slavs are M458, Norwegians and Scots are often L448, etc.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In my opinion, two things could really help the situation with R1a:

                          1. Like Javelin says, if you have tested as R1a, by all means, join the R1a subclades project. It costs you nothing & may just yield the pertinent data to uncover a new subclade.

                          2. Try to get a lot more people in the R1a world to take the y-DNA test (ie, among the Slavic, Armenian, Iranian, North Indian, & Scandinavian populations). These groups are largely under-sampled.

                          Timothy Peterman

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pascal the kraut View Post
                            Questions is: Of course there's an upgrade to 111. But I think there are also some additional SNPs that could be tested? Is this deep clade testing?

                            How pricey is a single SNPs? How many of them could be tested?
                            How pricey is a whole deep clade testing, if something like that exists?
                            I do not advise the Deep Clade. It is already woefully out of date. You are much better off ordering at least 67 markers, then asking for advice (e.g., from the R1a1a1 and Subclades Project) as to whether any of the currently known SNPs may be applicable to you.

                            Although R1a1a1 has been almost a monolith until recently, SNPs discovered in Walks Through the Y (WTYs) have helped significantly; and we have hope that the phylogeny deduced from the 1000 Genomes Project will assist further, when those Z series SNPs become available from FTDNA.

                            It is unfortunate, though, that much of R1a1a1 will remain unexplored for the time being, because the 1000 Genomes Project did not, and has no intention to, sample anyone from the countries between Germany and China.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              btw: Maybe I should open a extra thread for this question...

                              ... but I was wondering who to find on the net some detailed information about R1a1a1 subclades, so that I could narrow down my match to a certain area.

                              Only thing I've found so far was a distribution map of R1a1a on wikipedia.

                              Comment

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