Ancient DNA of Father Abraham

[Yaffa]

Ouch, so why don't we just talk about the DNA of the people who descended from Father Abraham, Issac and Jacob, the Israelite's, but if a person that is a decendent of father Abraham doesn't practice Judaism he is still an Israelite by blood, that can be proved by DNA.

You need paper of certain rituals to prove an ancestor was a praticing Jew, like temple records ect. No different than proving your ancestor went to church.

Matching Abraham does not prove anyone descends from him only that they would be related. It also does not prove that person was a practicing Jew just because they might have been related to Abraham.

Anyone who has Middle Eastern or North African DNA would have come from the area of Israel so one could call anyone of those people Isralites or not. Y DNA haplogoup 1,200 + years ago is not going to prove where exactly in what spot of the world your ancestor was born and I know no one who can trace their family back on solid paper 1200 years ago or could they prove that paper trail is solid.

Israel did not actually exist as a state/country until 1948 due to the Zionist movement.

[deniseneufeld]

What do you call the race of people that are descendents of Abraham, Issac and Jacob? What Haplogroup are they?

[Taz85]

I do know everything about Judaism. My family is actually quite religious even though I choose not to practice today the way I was raised .. Some were killed in the Shoah and some Live in Israel today.

So your calling my part of the family that was killed in the Shoah gentile?

You seem to be the one that is not in touch you only seem to know Jews but obviously dont practice.

The Rabbi know what they are talking about. They are scholars but you seem to think you know more then them.

Your the one who said that your only a jew if you practice judaism, not me.....so l dont understand why your asking me about your family. The Lubavitcher rebbe, the most influencial rabbi of modern time himself said that a jew always has the spark. Once a jew always a jew.....practicing or not.

[Yaffa]

Your the one who said that your only a jew if you practice judaism, not me.....so l dont understand why your asking me about your family. The Lubavitcher rebbe, the most influencial rabbi of modern time himself said that a jew always has the spark. Once a jew always a jew.....practicing or not.

It's a mother clan religion. You must be born to a Jewish Mother .Your mother must be born into the Jewish religion or you must convert ( Mikvah) . I posted a link to you about this and should be the first post on this page. Now you dont have to be a practicing Jew but if you accept any other interpretation of G-d they will shun you. There are some reasons you could be no longer considered a Jew.If you have spoken to Rabbi than ask questions about why you can be shunned. For instance if you get a tattoo you cant be buried in a Jewish cemetery. The only tattoos that are permitted is if you received a tattooed # from the Holocaust because it was not self inflicted. The Jewish bible does not permit self mutilation. No where does it state you cant have a Tattoo but they see tattoos as voluntary self mutilation. Not body art. And you can not imbomb (SP) a body at burial and you are not permitted to cremate a body. Your body must go back to the earth the way it came into the world.

[Taz85]

I know the restrictions. What tradition does your family hold to?

[Yaffa]

I know the restrictions. What tradition does your family hold to?

Orthodox. I was raised that way but I dont practice that way.They gave me the Mickva at birth. I was adopted. Bio family Colonial American and Indigenous. Some from Mex who may have had Sephardic Jew back there being they brought the Spanish Inquisition over here. Could have a practicing Muslim ancestor too. Who knows no paper.

[MMaddi]

I think that Vinnie gave the ultimate answer to the original poster. It seems like it's almost impossible that DNA will be obtained from the remains of Abraham that can settle the question.

Otherwise, two other posters have hijacked the thread to have a debate on theological questions. Unfortunately, that's what usually happens when an issue which has religious aspects is brought up on genetic genealogy forums. That's exactly the reason that religion (and politics) should be avoided here.

At least that's my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if the moderator shuts down this thread because of the religious debate it's turned into.

[Yaffa]

I think that Vinnie gave the ultimate answer to the original poster. It seems like it's almost impossible that DNA will be obtained from the remains of Abraham that can settle the question.

Otherwise, two other posters have hijacked the thread to have a debate on theological questions. Unfortunately, that's what usually happens when an issue which has religious aspects is brought up on genetic genealogy forums. That's exactly the reason that religion (and politics) should be avoided here.

At least that's my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if the moderator shuts down this thread because of the religious debate it's turned into.

Well Mike, The Jews being mother clan religion is genealogy. I dont see anyone in here converting anyone or preaching G-ds word. Why is it when anyone wants to discuss what is in the Christian bible for genealogy its ok but Talking about the Jews being mother clan or their genealogy is not OK.???

[deniseneufeld]

Oy vey

I think Vinnie answered my question, adios....

[MMaddi]

Well Mike, The Jews being mother clan religion is genealogy. I dont see anyone in here converting anyone or preaching G-ds word. Why is it when anyone wants to discuss what is in the Christian bible for genealogy its ok but Talking about the Jews being mother clan or their genealogy is not OK.???

The original poster just made it clear in her posting immediately above this one and at http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...9&postcount=45 that your debate was not answering her question and she got her answer. It's clear that you and your debating partner have hijacked the thread.

As I've explained to you in another thread a while ago about this, there are religious definitions of who is and isn't Jewish, which you've been debating. But there's also clear evidence that anyone with significant Jewish ancestry will show that in an autosomal DNA test, such as Family Finder or in Dr. McDonald's BGA analysis. That's the case even if no one among the person's ancestors has been a practicing Jew for generations. Your debate does not address that question.

And I don't want to debate that.

[Taz85]

So in the time of the ezekiels temple, when Hashem gathers israel from the 4 corners of earth ( because israelites exsist today), which gate will the jews who are jews from their mothers side enter through? And which piece of land is their inheiritence?

[Taz85]

My intent was not to get into a debate with anyone. Just look at my first posts. It seems l was lured into one though.

[Yaffa]

The original poster just made it clear in her posting immediately above this one and at http://forums.familytreedna.com/show...9&postcount=45 that your debate was not answering her question and she got her answer. It's clear that you and your debating partner have hijacked the thread.

As I've explained to you in another thread a while ago about this, there are religious definitions of who is and isn't Jewish, which you've been debating. But there's also clear evidence that anyone with significant Jewish ancestry will show that in an autosomal DNA test, such as Family Finder or in Dr. McDonald's BGA analysis. That's the case even if no one among the person's ancestors has been a practicing Jew for generations. Your debate does not address that question.

And I don't want to debate that.

Yes it will show up in autosomal because most stay in their own community and marry into their own faith so in that since they are related. I was raised in a Jewish community so I know. Why they have high rates of Tay-Sachs disease because they are related by inter marriages.. This has nothing to do with Y-MT DNA as other groups of people can have same Y and MT dna lines and still practice what ever religion they chose. Im sorry if it upsets you that they are Mother clan religion but I did not make the rules. Thats their rules but no one wants to accept what they have to say. People Just go an rewrite it as Jew is a race of people when they are not. Hitler thought Jew was a race of people and killed my family that raised me. My family is quite tetchy about people claiming they are a race of people and I dont blame them. Figuring out where the tribe of Judah started out from with Y and MT DNA is again a different issue. The discussion would have ended a long time ago if people would understand Jew is not a race of people. All I did originally is agree with Vinnie and then got debated about Africa and then Jew is a race of people.

[Yaffa]

My intent was not to get into a debate with anyone. Just look at my first posts. It seems l was lured into one though.

All I did was agree with Vinnie about the issue of 2 different haplogroups. You actually started the debate about Africa and then another started in to claim Jew is a race of people

[Taz85]

Yes it will show up in autosomal because most stay in their own community and marry into their own faith so in that since they are related. I was raised in a Jewish community so I know. Why they have high rates of Tay-Sachs disease because they are related by inter marriages.. This has nothing to do with Y-MT DNA as other groups of people can have same Y and MT dna lines and still practice what ever religion they chose. Im sorry if it upsets you that they are Mother clan religion but I did not make the rules. Thats their rules but no one wants to accept what they have to say. People Just go an rewrite it as Jew is a race of people when they are not. Hitler thought Jew was a race of people and killed my family that raised me. My family is quite tetchy about people claiming they are a race of people and I dont blame them. Figuring out where the tribe of Judah started out from with Y and MT DNA is again a different issue. The discussion would have ended a long time ago if people would understand Jew is not a race of people. All I did originally is agree with Vinnie and then got debated about Africa and then Jew is a race of people.

Was your family sephardi, ashkenaz, mizrahi?